I just wanted to put something on the blog (again) about my rejection of the idea that Revelation 12 has anything to do with the second coming or end times in general. I’ve been getting emails with links to YouTube videos like this one that use my thoughts about the astral signage being an indication of the birth of Jesus as proof that the (presumed) repetition of the signage signals the second coming, or some sort of revealing of fallen angels, Watchers, etc. September 23 is the new date for all this to happen “because the Bible tells us so.” Sigh.
As those who follow my work know, I don’t think the signs of Revelation 12 have anything to do with end times. There is no verse in the NT that tells us to look for a repetition of those signs in connection with the second coming. There is also no verse that links the signs to the “sign of the son of man” in the gospel eschatological discourses. The sign of the son of man could be several specific things, or nothing specific at all. We have ZERO scriptural reason to thing this way.
Revelation 12 is HINDSIGHT with respect to the messiah’s birth, not foresight. It is not a fulfillment of any OT prophecy. There is no OT prophecy that told readers to look for the signs given in the passage for the coming messiah of Israel. So let not your hearts be troubled. For those who remember my 2014 post on this issue, the “no one knows” answer Jesus gave to when his coming would be won’t be improved upon by astronomy software.
Anyway, just wanted to put this up. I can hardly wait until October! One more failure to predict the second coming or the associated events. But, true to form, the date-setters will have their excuses ready.
Yes, it can be soul-crushing for me to read / watch this sort of nonsense. But the real problem is that it is faith-destroying for many. That’s the harm.
Thanks again Dr Heiser.
*Sighs and puts his Nephilim wrestling pants back into storage until the next sure fire end-times prophecy*
Glad to see you post on this Mike. I myself have been receiving a lot of hits from these guys using a blog post of mine to bolster their viewpoint. I interviewed a DTS scholar who argued that the child in Rev 12 was the church. Add that to the astral prophecy reading of Rev 12, and bingo, we have a rapture in 2017.
http://mydigitalseminary.com/pre-tribulational-rapture-interview-michael-svigel/
This has given me a tiny glimpse into your frustrations with people who misuse your work!
How much time did you spend on studying the Revelation 12 sign…or did you just dismiss automatically based upon your vast knowledge of Scripture?
a lot — search youtube for me talking about it. That isn’t the point. The point is the complete absence of any verse that connects Rev 12’s signs with the second coming. The signs in Rev 12 relate to the first coming – read the whole passage (virgin giving birth to a child ought to sound familiar — and the passage quotes Psalm 2 to make the point of a messianic birth crystal clear). Rev 19 doesn’t describe Jesus coming back through another mother’s birth canal.
Sep.23, 2017 probably isn’t eschatologically significant, but I’m watching it, anyway, out of curiosity and hope. My faith won’t be shaken if nothing happens. But I wouldn’t mind if Jesus decides to come back on that day. Would you?
not at all
Elijah has to come before the Mashiach. Elijah hasn’t come yet so why would you think that it’s possible for the Mashiach to come on 09/23/17? That’s just not logical.
Besides, if 09/23/17 is a significant date at all & is related to Rev. 12, it’s significant for the Jews, not for gentiles.
The woman in Rev. 12. – moronic Catholics (me being one of them) believe that’s Virgin Mary. Rev. 12 has nothing to do with Virgin Mary or birth of Christ. That’s a Catholic thinking and that’s just plain wrong. So just stop it already!!!
“garland of twelve stars” – the scripture couldn’t make it more clear that this is about Israel.
And the rapture? That whole idea was started by a Catholic priest named Francisco Ribera.
If you truly have personal relationship with YHWH, you wouldn’t trust any Catholic teachings. I should know. I am a 7th generation Catholic.
FYI, this whole 09/23/17 fiasco got started by a border-line lunatic named William Tapley on youtube. And yes, he’s a Catholic too.
This would be so hilarious if abundant stupidity found among believers isn’t so offensive.
Mike,
Off topic question, were you going to place the Ezekiel series on Amazon like you did other podcast series?
at some point!
how come you academic types are so easily fooled ? Why do you never actually talk to the people you think you are refuting.
why do people try to make date setters and would-be prophets otherwise?
Scripture determines truth and truth scholarship. Not the other way around. Remember that.
Unrelated but your posts on free will and predestination seem to have gone
So true. This kind of things IS a faith killer for the many who pay attention to these things. Then the world laughs at the “stupid Christians.” Ephesians 4 mentions how apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers were put in the church by God, first of all to prepare God’s people for works of service, then to bring a unity of the faith as well as a maturity that is as the Son of God’s. Perhaps we should instead be watching and praying for a time when God pours out his Spirit in a way that brings those things to pass in the church. Peter said that heaven must retain the Lord Jesus until the “restoration of all things.” Maybe that includes the restoration of the body of Christ in the earth. We so need mature Holy Spirit filled and anointed leaders in the church to bring the body to maturity. Sometimes it seems like the blind are leading the blind.
Amen
Dr Heiser, I want to thank you for all the work you’ve done over the years, it has really helped me. I’ve been looking into the concept of the “chaos monster” and I wanted to ask you if Leviathan could be the Old Testament basis for Satan in Revelation.
Dr Heiser, I want to thank you for all the work you’ve done over the years. I’ve been looking into the concept of the “chaos monster” and I wanted to ask you if Leviathan could be the basis for Satan in Revelation.
There’s certainly a connection, though I think Satan is an actual intelligent being, whereas Leviathan is a metaphor (a well-known one in antiquity).
Thank you for the reply, I’ve been reading Cydonia by the late David Flynn, do you think he was correct to connect it with the ouroborous? Furthermore you have said previously (13 years ago in a conference) that all this could point to some cataclysmic event before Genesis 1:1, do you still hold on to that view ?
Revelation 1: The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John. The book of Revelation has everything to do with the future as stated by Jesus Christ.
How you can so casually dismiss the signs pointing to the 70th week of Daniel, aka, the time of Jacob’s trouble, and the revelation that Jesus Christ gave boggles my mind, except, of course that Peter warned this would be the case in the last days……just incredibly sad that the scoffers are people purporting to be teachers of the faith……
2 Peter 3:3 First, be aware of this: Scoffers will come in the last days to scoff, living according to their own desires.
Revelation doesn’t improve on Jesus’ answer that he didn’t know the day or hour of his coming. Date setting is unscriptural (that was the point).
Wow, you picked a really bad example for the youtube video. No wonder you’ve done a poor job of debunking it.
FYI: Those of us who believe that the events described in the book of Revelation, chapter 12, are future, are in good company. Let’s start with Tom horn, Chris Putnam, Chuck Missler, Dr. Michael Svigel, and the author of Revelation: John.
In the book ” On the Path of the Immortals” Tom Horn and Chis Putnam make the case that Satan falls three times in scripture. Two are historical, one is future. ” In Revelation, Satan it’s cast down as the result of Michael’s army’s triumph over their fallen adversaries, not the positional checkmate accomplished by the cross that “spoiled principalities and powers” (Colossians 2:15).” A large section in the book is devoted to making their case.
Dr. Michael Svigel, Th.M., Ph.d. of Dallas Theological Seminary
From : AN INTERVIEW WITH MICHAEL SVIGEL (Dallas Theological Seminary): PRE-TRIBULATIONAL RAPTURE
“I argue that the symbol of the male child in Revelation 12:5 is best identified as the body of Christ, the church, and the child’s catching up to God and His throne is best identified as the catching up of the body of Christ elsewhere described in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.”…….
“In fact, the earliest advocates of a pre-tribulational rapture (John Nelson Darby, William Kelly, William Blackstone, H.A. Ironside, etc.) pointed to this passage (Rev. 12:5) as decisive exegetical evidence for a pre-seven-year rapture of the church.” ……
The Male Child is “Snatched Up.” The word in Revelation 12:5 is the word for “rapture,” harpazo, and always means a sudden removal, a snatching. In contrast, for the ascension of Christ, the New Testament uses terms such as “to be lifted up,” epairo (Acts 1:9), “to ascend,” anabaino (John 20:17; Ephesians 4:8-10) and “to take up,” analambano (Mark 16:19; Luke 1:11). These are neutral terms meaning a removal from one place to another. Revelation 12:5 has the male child being suddenly snatched away from the dragon, who wants to devour the child. The ascension of Christ was gradual (Acts 1:10), not sudden. Also, Revelation 12:5 is a context of “rescue” from the threat of the dragon. The word “rapture,” harpazo, is appropriately used in the New Testament for a rescue in Acts 23:10 and Jude 23. In His ascension to heaven, Christ was not rescued, but ascended victoriously and was no danger from the devil or anybody else. The term “rapture,” harpazo, is never used of Christ’s ascension to heaven. Thus, the use of harpazo in a rescue context like Revelation 12:5 is completely inappropriate to describe the ascension of Christ, but is completely appropriate to describe the rapture of the church as a rescue from Satan’s emerging efforts to destroy the church as we approach the end times.
Full article: http://mydigitalseminary.com/pre-tribulational-rapture-interview-michael-svigel/
Full article: Point counter Point: https://bible.org/article/apocalypse-john-and-rapture-church-reevaluation
——————————————————————————————–
Chuck Missler in this video makes the case that Revelation 12 may better be understood as future, similar to Michael Svigel arguments. 34 min mark
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iybidtXaWR4
In Revelation 1:1 … The things that must soon take place. Rev 4:1 …. come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.
So if they are correct, and Revelation 12 is future, then logically the sign is future.
Dr. Heiser, while I agree with you on all these points, I do have an opinion/belief.
I believe that this particular sign in the heavens IS Almighty Gods handiwork, they are not traceable/repeated backward or forward in time at ANY point.
His word does not return void. Thus, the manifestation of this sign.
What does it mean? I don’t know. Do I literally read into the events of the day and correlate them with this sign? I don’t know.
What is does show to me is that God performs His word.
Rapture? I think not. Return of Christ? Remains to be seen. I for one will have to be translated outta here by Jesus Himself. Aliens? Don’t care. Giants? Don’t care. Is it the ushering into the tribulation? Don’t know.
What I do care about is Gods Imminence. Meaning, believers and non-believers alike will see a sign that is irrefutable that aligns perfectly with His word.
In Christ,
Chris Burkhalter
Frankly, Michael, I understand why some people get obsessed with dates, prophecy, and “the times and the seasons.” They are often despairing of this world and “want to get OUT of here”.(!) Yes. It can become an obsession and it CAN be harmful to faith when “the dates fail.”
Thank you for your sound biblical exegesis and warnings about putting too much faith in the date-setters and “the signs of the times.” I think it is pretty clear that we ARE in “the last of the last days”, but specific date-setting about rapture or 2cd Advent is always presumptuous and even dangerous.
Shalom and GOD bless.
Yahu-ah-Yahu-ah YahOvah-Yah-ahvah. – THE ETERNAL G-ah-d of Divine Love.
“ah” has always been the shortened form of “Yah” – Yahweh/YahwA.
Agreed. Some even twist the no one knows statement
So according to all you have written and all you teach you appear to lead us to things past and how we can read the “context” according to what was written in the light of the culture , well as I have read thru the bible for many years and just recently your book unseen realm , do you not point us to a world in which we as humans can have no concept , no vision of the (supernatural) world and how it is presented . Yet I do , as I started reading the bible I saw and read of the supernatural , the trueness of what was written , and how can one escape all the supernatural world that Jesus presented to us , so as you and many others I too have ventured out and have read and continue to read the other books that are mentioned in the bible as those books help to piece many things together . So can anyone ,even you dismiss this sign , Luke 10:21, the Father has hidden things from the wise and prudent and hast revealed them unto babes , now certainly this is Jesus and his people the Jew but it is the ones in authority , the rulers, Scribes and Pharisees, those who SHOULD have known but the unlearned have the belief and understanding., could it possibly be that today there is blindness in those who carry such vast knowledge but lack plainness of Heart? In the Olivet Discourse Jesus uses many –SIGNS — those of the earth that will physically happen and all can see but then he points to signs that are in the heavens that many will miss , how do we read these in the context ? Oh that’s right they DID happen according to past written history and what the experts can trace back to the astrological patterns. When the blood moons came , everyone said “ho hum” , but those with the truth of the Spirit saw that the U.S lost Top dog status , China during that time became the Top dog , Russia was doing incredible things that leads to their position today and Israel started sacrifices also for the first time ever the US abstained from the UN vote for Israel … so those blood moons meant something and that something points to Israel ….. everyone points to what Jesus said in Matt 25:36 true it is the day and the hour but yet again NO ONE INCLUDES THAT THEY SHOULD HAVE KNOWN the SEASON of the FESTIVALS OF OUR LORD … and he is telling the Jewish disciples , therefore he is talking of the 70th week , the tribulation to come , they , the Jew , never had understanding of the Rapture as they were promised a Kingdom of Heaven on earth in which God was with them , eternal . Yet when Jesus confronts the Pharisees does he not tell them that they have missed the signs , for he was written about in the volume of the book? So with this Rev 12 sign , why is it put in the place it is put in ? Did anyone mention that one of the planets change, in the time of the birth of our Lord the 3 planets were Venus, Mercury, Jupiter — which in the culture you tell us about , they were seen as the signs of the gods so Jupiter is called the Father of the Gods , who is God the Father, Mercury is known as the Messenger god , which is Gabriel , Venus is known as the Morning star , which is Jesus , Rev 22:16 … Luke 1:26 – 31, read this passage using the planet names … right it fits . Now we will have this Sept. this alignment BUT with one different planet …. and that planet is Mars , which is the god of war , who is known as Michael , the warring angel , Daniel 10,he fights with the chief prince of Persia to help Gabriel who is delivering the understanding of the vision and a few other fights with the bad angels are written. So how can you be so disrespectful to those of us who can see that this means something , what it means ,well we shall see or hear , watch on you tube …. Mike Correl , he even goes into the Rev 15 sign as does Robert Breaker , I knew from what I had read and studied that they see something too, and I Thank them for the depth they have brought to me and others… Rapture or war , who knows but let’s not totally dismiss this , as it is written ! This is a dual prophecy as I read many years ago and these 2 spirit lead men see this also …. Blessings to all .
It’s a sign. Not so much an event. I would like to think it’s like the 5 minute warning to board your flight. But we all know how much time 5 minutes can be to God! So, it’s a great opportunity to keep ourselves in check with our Lord’s expectations…check our lanterns and such!
He comes as a thief in the night to the unprepared. To us who he loves… He sends a flare….the Revelation sign….
If the sign is the Revelation sign…. I mean, are we in Revelation?
Maybe the sign will be much more if Revelation is chronological.
Be prepared, look forward to his coming anytime, and grab some more souls to fly with us before it’s too late. Be thankful, happy and glad to be on the winning side regardless of what comes September 23!
My guess is that you didn’t read the book of revelation or read the revelation 12 verses it clearly tell us about September 23 2017 women clothed with the sun and with the moon under her feet the crown with 12 stars it sounds like a prophecy to me
what about the child being born isn’t clear? I don’t see Jesus coming back as a baby anywhere in the NT.
i dont rember ever see any dates in the bible
Amen. Well said with your article.
Indeed, Mike. Faith crushing is the danger in believing such inserted interpretation. I’ve seen several fellow Bible students writing about a rapture this month. LORD, bring them back to the truth and keep them from harm.
The articles that I have read are suggesting the end of the world but that is not how I read the Bible. I look forward to the return of the Son of man, not just a sign. I tend to think that if the alignment of the Son of man were seen in the constellations, I would think maybe it would be an important marker.
This Thursday is a Sabbath and Yahushua said: ‘But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day’:
~ Matthew 24:20
In this verse and whole chapter, He is answering three questions about the end of days. It seems to me that if He told the audience to pray that the end not be on the Sabbath or in the Winter, that enough folks would be praying as He said.
I think that so many people are not Sabbath keepers that they may not even know that the 23rd of September is the Feast of Trumpets.
The script about the constellation alignment is found at
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Ummm, something else to think of is that Yahushua said to look up…. there must be a reason He said to look up. Yahwey told Abraham to count the stars, so looking up, I would think that if our redemption was ‘drawing nigh’ that would point to seeing something in the heavens.
Genesis 1:14 And Elohim said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Seasons is a Hebrew word translated from moade, meaning an a pointed time or place.
Genesis 1:14 And Elohim said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
When Yahushua was being bound to the cross, Josephesus wrote that 2 million people were there in the city. They began to sing Hallel, in Psalm 118.
Psalm 118:27 El is יהוה, which hath shewed us light: bind the sacrifice with cords, even unto the horns of the altar.
Yahwey’s seasons have been written a long time. These are His appointments.
Do you want to be at the wedding of Messiah? Then why wouldn’t you want to be at the dress rehersal?
The church is supposed to be provoking the Israelites to jealousy. When we begin to celebrate God’s Holy Days, they see us observing and celebrating His goodness in His appointed seasons. When the church celebrates Paganism, we only provoke the Israelites to anger and confusion.
Yahushua did not ask us to celebrate His birth or His death. Yahwey didn’t either.
on the stars, see David Burnett’s work here. God doesn’t tell anyone to look for a repetition of Rev 12 for any reason (he actually never told anyone in the OT to look for all that in the first place). Rev 12 is hindsight, not foresight. It fulfills no OT prophecy, and isn’t a prophecy for the future. The text is clear.
As to Rev. 12…I always thought the male child referred to Christ, the woman as Israel, and His being caught up , to His Ascension. Now I’m hearing that…the male child could represent the Church, being caught up , the Rapture, and the dragon making war on her descendants , as the Great Tribulation. I guess this is possible…As to the Sept. 23 rd constellations, I am especially impressed with Pastor Robert Breaker’s explanation, especially with the “rogue” star called Red Dragon…although we must remember that the constellation Draco is not far away from that location in the sky. thanks. RR
Mike, the video linked (“like this one”) no longer exists on Youtube. Just thought I’d let you know.