One of the response to my re-visitation of “Heiser’s Laws for Bible Study” prompted me to bring up something I’ve been thinking about. I have some questions to which I’d be interested to read your responses (collecting feedback; that’s all):
1. If I posted video sermons / biblical content (by me) on a weekly basis would that be something you think I should be doing?
2. Although such a thing wouldn’t properly be a substitute for church (e.g., no community, at least ostensibly), would it be more of a supplement or substitute for you / others?
Here’s what prompts the question in the bigger picture.
I get a lot of email or have a lot of conversations with people who are disgruntled with the teaching they get at church. Maybe I get too much of it to be rightly perceiving things, but it seems to me that every church has Christians that ….
- Know they aren’t being taught anything of substance or depth
- Suspect they aren’t being told the whole story about what Scripture is about
- Recognize that there has to be more to Scripture than what they’re getting (parenting platitudes, self-help, SS stories, character sketches)
Over the course of the past few years (maybe decade) I’ve developed something of a sense (right or wrong) that Churches have a number of thinking people who want to be intellectually and theologically stimulated, but aren’t. That is, they are frustrated with the lightweight teaching they get each week. Church for them has basically become a weekly rehearsal of the most basic elements of Christianity. Every Sunday reviews who Jesus is, what he did, and the fact that we need to follow his example now in the way we live. Those things are important, but they are rudimentary.
The message I keep hearing is that “Sunday School shouldn’t be forever.”
Again, I’ve felt this way for a long time, but am willing to be told it’s because of my own over-exposure to my In box. I just feel that I ought to be doing something to help if the numbers are there.
Thoughts?
Dr. Heiser,
To answer your 1st question, should you be doing this?
Well, you already are through Logos not to mention your teachings available through your local congregation and what’s viewable on YouTube. So, to make a commitment for a once a week teaching , I think, shouldn’t be that much of a stretch.
Question 2.
It would be a supplement (for me) with an opportunity to better equip at the local level. In fact, I’m already there with your teachings when I speak with my fellow pew sitters.
If the numbers are there, which I hope they will be, with your next 2 volumes due to released in about 6 months or so, the timing for this project couldn’t be better.
Hope this helps a little,
Vincent S. Artale, Jr.
What I do at Logos actually isn’t a lot of video output (when it happens, it is done over a one week span).
I’m not actually planning anything definite here. It’s sort of in the mental queue.
I’m nearly ready to take something like you’re suggesting as a substitute for going to church. I simply get nothing out of the church I go too, and I don’t have any better alternatives in my area. However, I still worry about being part of a physical community, and I also am concerned about not taking the Lord’s supper periodically. Anyway, I’m certainly interested.
I hear you; this lament (and its concern) are common to the interactions I’ve had. I’m not sure what can be done about the community element, though some have floated a few ideas. Still thinking about it.
Dr. Heiser,
I have a suggestion regarding the community aspect. You could have an only group of those who “attend” the studies and have a place to interact. Off the top of my mind I think that forums that pertain to a given message could be grouped together. Other forums could be seperate. For a more live interacton, google hangouts could be used for that.
Here’s the one (!) thought that popped into my head in this regard. You can tell me where it differs from what you’re thinking.
I post a sermon/lesson (I don’t care what it’s called) every Sunday or Sat night. Then have 1-2 video chat sessions with whoever is interested to discuss it. This would depend on what it would cost and my technical aptitude threshold (which is pretty low).
That is right on with what I was thinking. I am not sure on the logistics though. Additionally, recording the video chat would be a plus for those who can be involved during those time periods.
The chat / audience thing has come up in emails (things not posted here), so that is good to hear; it’s stimulated some ideas.
You hit it on the head! This is why I started my training at Koinonia Institute, so I could bring a mature sensibility to a watered down church that is more concerned about making people happy then teaching them the truth.
This is why I follow you, Douglas Hamp and Chuck Missler, so that I can dive deep into the Bible, the truth, and not the religious mess that church is.
Truth be told I’m creating a gym/coffee house company that will be able to support itself and where we teach right in the coffee house, and where we can attract people of the street through the combat gym.
People are looking for truth, but they’re being fed twinkies.
So yes (sorry for my rambling)!
This is interesting. I keep meeting people who are basically bypassing what the church isn’t doing in an effort to get those same things done. (If that convoluted sentence makes any sense). I can’t recall just now if you’ve read The Portent, but this problem is an under-current in the book. Brian finds himself among people whose attitude is to just get things done.
1) absolutely!
2) both: substitute, since my work schedule doesn’t allow regular church attendance; and supplement to the other sources I use for biblical education.
Hadn’t thought of the schedule thing; makes sense, though.
Mike…this is exactly the way I feel. I really am looking for some good teaching about what the Bible is really saying. I do not want my ears tickled. I want the truth…no matter how much it might hurt or turn my world upside down.
What videos of yours that I have seen in the past (along with all the posts, books, and such) have really been a blessing. I know that there are others out there who, like yourself, are doing their best to provide some meat for the believers out here who do not have the time or aptitude to really dig into God’s Word. Unfortunately, most of them are not the ones who are up front in the pulpit on Sunday mornings.
If you were to post videos (or even just do an audio podcast) on a regular basis, I would be watching and/or listening. I’d also probably be asking lots of questions because that’s just the way I am. 🙂
Here we go again (see other responses) – people out there within churches taking it upon themselves to do the task that isn’t getting done.
I would watch your lessons (already do on youtube actually), and am grateful and better equipped for them. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed ‘I dare you not to bore me with the Bible’.
Our church began a Sunday evening study on deep theological issues which has become quite popular for this very reason. I’m 37 and I experience my generation quite engaged in the details and depth. We hired a scroll scholar on staff to begin to address this very issue, bridging the gap between academic scholarship and knowledge/maturity within the church.
I really appreciate your work.
Kindly,
Will
wow – kudos to the leadership at your church for doing that. Thanks.
YES DO IT PLEASE! There are so many of us out here, as you described that would welcome your effort to help us get in depth teaching.I’ve watched the “quality of teaching” from the pulpits slide for the last 30 years to the point that at present it’s a vertical, terminal slide downhill.If God could vomit at the disastrous wasting of the “Christian mind” we’d all need rain suites and extra thick umbrellas.
Time for a confession – I laughed at “vertical, terminal slide” – a good line, but not really funny, obviously.
Hey, I’m Jewish and I would enjoy such videos!
Stuff like this: https://drmsh.com/2014/09/08/sanctified-dirt/
is really good. (if that is the sort of things you are talking about posting)
You’re awesome 🙂
Anything by way of 5 min videos or even 30 min, depending on point being made, would be nice. I’m thinking podcast style, but YouTube or Vimeo would be a great vehicle of course.
Even if you just cover short passages and gave insight into the historical context/language and how it should inform our spiritual lives, pointing out flawed teachings on the same matter and why they are flawed. Also, pointing out excellent references, commentaries as you often do in your blogs, so we know what we should be adding to our libraries and can trust are scholarly (and yet be readable).
I’ll suggest a silly phrase, “short and sweet can still be deep”, as a worthwhile reason to produce such content. Even in 5 minutes, one verse broken down could be a great start to someone’s day. Especially if it ties into to say more thorough content in longer format. I’m thinking, I guess, like singles and albums to borrow a musical analogy.
Basically like blog posts, brief (but insightful) videos could meet our initial hunger pangs for deep thoughts and of course that same content you could compile into sermon/classroom like productions as time and motivation allowed.
Truth be told, you could start by just reading aloud your blog posts, which might seem odd, but for people like me with short attention spans it’d be great. 🙂 I think there are lots of us that enjoy listening to good spoken word while doing whatever else we need or want to do.
Just some thoughts.
Oh, I didn’t address your 2 points directly.
1. “should” is such a strong word. ha. Let’s just say, yes it would be great. Particularly, having content you’ve mostly only written on in audio/visual format is always desirable for reaching more people in need of such content.
2. It would supplement, fill in the gap, in many ways for those of us in some sort of fellowship presently, but I also would say it’s useful for those transitioning, or without a local fellowship for whatever reason, and could serve as something to sustain them until they can get back into a group for more direct human contact. Your content could feed those in the spiritual deserts. 🙂
Thanks for this, even the “excess”; good stuff for thinking about this.
I’ll be brief and to the point.
To both of your questions…… a resounding “YES”!
I crave what you teach and perpetual Sunday School has turned me off of church.
To be more clear on answering the second question.
It would be substitute as I don’t go to church for reasons stated above.
I hear you. I’ve met a good number of people who say the same thing — so many who leave church yet have more desire for biblical things than many who stay.
I think the answer is for people to get out of Protestantism. Cut and run. The lack of depth you bemoan (and believe me, it’s the biggest thorn in my side) is not such a problem in Catholic and Orthodox churches. If people stay in Protestantism, then by and large the prosaic dullness of such churches, to be found on every corner, shall never be overcome, because it is in their very spiritual DNA to think the Book is the faith, and to interpret it at a high school level. The exceptions prove the rule. It’s time for Christians to get in touch with 2000 years of Christianity, not 500. Christianity should not have bare walls and no Eucharist. A Psalm is something that is sung, not read as prose.
But most in America will surely die in their tidy lukewarmness. The spiritually adventurous are few, especially where I live in Kentucky, the land of “church for dummies”.
Let me add a PS:
Protestant Christianity, by largely rejecting the symbolic dimensions of the faith so well communicated by means of holy image, liturgy, sacrament, holy tradition, and even the smell of incense and the glorious flicker of candlelight, is robbed of depth from the get-go. Traditional, pre-Protestant Christianity effectively appealed to all five senses to communicate Truth. But in a middle American church, most everything is reduced to hearing words (and some pop-oriented music), and the words are often repeated and rudimentary.
agreed on the senses — and having some sort of liturgy (not speaking of high church here) can give meaningful structure for those who pay attention to it.
No, I must disagree about high church. The early Christians were poor and had to work underground, but it is the right of Christians to know beauty, to know a respite from the mundane. The lack of a thriving symbolic life for most Christians has resulted in a pop culture stepping up to fill the gap with every kind of trivial and profane ugliness, including a Hollywood constantly regurgitating themes of violent Paganism. I feel like I am only talking to myself somehow, but this opinion is important to me. I know its gravity and I deeply feel its consequences.
Not sure you understood; I wasn’t promoting high church. I meant that I don’t see liturgy as = high church.
Nope, I understood your point about high church (liturgy does not necessitate high church), and what I wrote was my reply on the matter.
In reply to Andrew…what?!?! I’m interested in studying the Bible, not “churchianity.” And what’s up with Catholics praying to everybody but the Son of God? Hello! That’s an example of “churchianity.” No, thank you!
In one respect, I agree (a bit), particularly with E. Orthodoxy. I have friends in there for whom the divine council is not a foreign concept. I have other issues with their doctrine, though. Catholicism just isn’t on that level. It’s theologizing, with little root in the biblical text (I speak here of church — I know several biblical scholars who are catholic and lament this with regularity — not Catholics who are biblical scholars). Again, I have serious disagreements with points of doctrine.
I’d also disagree with respect to Protestantism in some respect – reformed Baptists and certain Presbyterians are well beyond what happens in most evangelical churches (which I think is your real target – and they are of course Protestants).
I think there is a dearth of *biblical* literacy across the board. But where there is a (denomination) tradition or filter to pass on, more can happen in churches (in terms of content) than when there is no such tradition. Modern evangelicalism is an example of the latter, which in part explains why the pulpit content is so pitiful – self-help, character sketches, spiritual anecdotes with stand up comedy, and the gospel repeated week after week, ad infinitum. They have little or nothing to say beyond that, whereas Orthodoxy, Catholicism, and various Protestant traditions can dip into the well of their tradition.
Admittedly I mentioned Catholicism to kind of strengthen my argument, and not look like such a shill for the Christian East (which I, being Armenian, certainly favor). But you’re right, Catholicism was marred by Scholasticism and is not on that level. Thanks for nothing, Averroes.
Remember: every book of the New Testament, except Revelations, is incorporated in the Orthodox liturgy that people hear and recite. The influence of that can be expected to stick. But it’s true these people should also read their Bibles more, and actually print them (can you believe that to this day the Coptic Church of Egypt uses Evangelical Bibles, which don’t even contain their whole canon?)
I am not in the same boat with the minority of Protestants that strictly follow the Bible, either. I study the Bible more than most, but I have a liberal idea of scripture, and my Bible is not my Koran. The Word is Jesus Christ.
That’s Eastern.
I fully concur!
I came from catholicism when I was young, then my parents switched to Pentecostalism, sadly, which I always felt has no depth.
I agree that E. Orthodoxy has the upper hand in the traditional churches.
I do like the baptists, very learned normally!
I’m currently going to the C&MA, which doesn’t have the tradition I would like, however they believe in knowing their bible!
I have a friend who, until recently, pastored a C & MA church (at least it began that way) and would agree. My own orientation (as a teenager) was Baptist. It’s a tradition that (in the evangelical orbit) tries to take Scripture seriously. That said, they have their own theological grid through which many things are sifted.
Aptly put!
We need a modern monastic order!
Maybe make a social media site devoted to an online monastic order, there you go, no charge
LOL!
Kentucky born and bred here.:)
And hailing from a very large family that is known, on both sides , for being inquisitive and spiritually adventurous,(sometimes too publically).lol
“Church for dummies land” is everywhere. Believe me. Been there, done that! The same can be said for other religions as well.
The fault lies largely with the leadership not the congregation IMO.
Laughed at this – and caught the earlier reference, too. I still think that church leadership under-estimates the interest and intelligence of a good % of their congregation. I’ve had a lot of ideas about ministry beaten out of me by real life, but I’m still clinging to this one.
Yes, please seriously consider a weekly!
There is no substitute for spending consistent time with other believers. Supplements are essential!
God bless your willingness to share.
a shared lament right now!
1. I would say should is a bit strong. I would appreaciate your doing so. Additionally, I would like to have print materials or availabity for download to watch later.
2. While I don’t think it is a substitute for “church” per se, I do think it is importent. I work most weekends and don’t have the ability to go to a building.
Keep up the good work!
Where do I sign up !!!!
You lurker! Send me an email – we should go out for breakfast or something. Would like to catch up.
Sounds good
This is just my take on it but, I would vote yes twice.
As a guy who has been to just about every type of church service one could imagine I can say that your sense of things is pretty spot on. I also work with, and around, a lot of very smart people in a very secular job and yet somehow, God or Christianity seems to come up quite a bit in passing conversation. One thing all of the people I end up in conversations with have in common is they are either disillusioned because they don’t like being talked down to, or they are on fire and off fire for all the wrong reasons. Most have given up on going to Church and some, like you say above, go through the motions and attend every week as if it’s an obligation or duty that must be done, but with little joy and no heartfelt anticipation in hearing the amazing word of God delivered to them in the way it was meant to be represented.
It reminds me of how history is taught in America; very dry and politically correct readings of the same old historical “facts”, delivered many times in a way that leaves out the original context of the people and situations that are the core of the lesson. The students feel little if any connection to the historical “cartoon” characters they’re supposed to be learning a lesson from and therefore retain very little of the information. History teachers do this because they think that kids may not be ready for some of the facts but what excuse do pastors and church leaders have?
Just like the kids in history class, I think my co-workers and most church goers are being failed by the people they trust to learn from.
Christians are hungry for the scripture but end up starving at church. I think you may have the meal that a lot of people are craving.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I’ve been kind of amazed by the responses (so many).
To answer, yes.
I watch pastoral conferences all the time, online, ie. Macarthur, Sproul, etc.
They are constantly concerned with either the direction of the church itself or the lack of proper teaching (expository, etc.) and/or the growth of the mega-churches, or whatever.
Often the implication is that people just want their ears tickled so they go away from sound doctrine to something fluffy.
Of course this is true in some cases, but not to the degree that the leaders imply.
What I think is taking its toll on the average believer is the movement by the neo-atheists and those in entertainment and hollywood who use their comedic arenas as anti-christian and anti-bible platforms. Also, of course, the Bart Ehrmans and other liberal scholarship that challenge fundamentalism.
I bring it up on this forum because I think that these people and groups who are antithetical to christian fundamentalism often make good cases against Christian behavior (ie. hypocrisy) and/or contradictions or apparent flaws in the bible itself.
Cases that are not being dealt with by the church. Instead the fundamentalist leader will simply shake his/her head and dismiss the skeptic out of hand as a militant anti-christ.
Meanwhile, the on-looking layperson begins an inward struggle with the new-found issue, often feeling the church leader is unapproachable about the subject. Over time these issues compile and take their toll on the person’s faith. Eventually that person’s faith will morph into something hybrid or something new altogether.
I have personally found that facing the questions brought up by the skeptics often yields a new and more exciting truth about the scriptures, an alternative view that can make more sense and make the bible come alive in new ways (see, The New Realm, etc.)
So, yes, what we need is someone who will take on the anti’s agenda.
Thanks – insightful. And I of course agree that facing questions is a good thing, one that can open up the text like never before if one is willing to put forth the effort.
Stumbling across your site years ago was one of the best things to happen to my Christian walk. Your posts and videos have often challenged me and forced me to learn how to approach the text. Your availability to respond to comments and emails has mattered more than I can possibly tell you — your suggestions of books (Walton, Enns, Chevalier, Malina, Segal, and more) have been incredibly instructive and deepened my appreciation for the text. I LOVE studying the text now, and that’s due in no small part to the role you’ve played in making me aware of the depth that exists.
There is a price to pay, though. Honesty compels me to say that I have not yet encountered a person of any authority in the many churches I deal with in my ministry who can “hang”. And that’s not me patting myself on the back. It’s me being disturbed that men who have made this a career are not more educated in how to approach the text. I am a technical writer for a software company who writes fiction and non-fiction on the side and runs his own information marketing company in his “spare” time. There is no way I should be more well-read or conversant regarding scripture than the pastors or teachers I meet.
I am more aware than ever of my own incredible level of ignorance regarding the Bible; it disturbed the heck out of me to find out the (good, God-loving, well-meaning) men who teach hundreds and thousands on a regular basis shared my ignorance but were unaware of it.
I often have occasion when the lights are out and people have left to talk with speakers/pastors/evangelists over the last remaining slices of stale pizza or shriveled hot dogs that the kids didn’t eat. Natural conversation invariably turns to the text, and I cannot count the number of times I have (quite accidentally) mentioned a “Naked Bible” idea or concept to get either a blank stare, an indignant glare, or an excited/shocked look. And this is with me intentionally avoiding the things I KNOW would be controversial. No WAY am I bringing up the discussion of views on a historical Adam. But dangit, accidentally refer once to the editorial process that produced the text of Genesis and suddenly you start smelling lighter fluid. “Uh, Jim, what’s that stake for?”
And then there are the brain cells I lose every time someone refers to The Harbinger or The Four Blood Moons as “scholarly”. Or Left Behind as a “great Christian book/movie”. My intellectual reflex is to raise my eyebrows and go, “Well, actually…”
But these are invariably wonderful men and women with a heart for the things of God and a desire to teach and preach the gospel, so most of the time I just shut up and color and then drive home feeling like a jerk.
“Does it really matter, man? They love Christ and they’re doing his work.”
“Yeah, but what is the point of studying if you don’t teach what you learn? What if it’s your responsibility to point them in a new direction or make them ask new questions?”
No idea which shoulder-sitting whisperer is the angel and which is the devil. All I know is that most evangelists (and evangelicals, for that matter) are, of necessity, very certain in their theology and ideas.
Now that I’ve written War and Peace: The Revenge, I’ll wrap up by actually answering your questions. Yes, I absolutely want you to create as much web content as you can in order to feed my addiction. It would never really be a substitute, though. Why? Because it’s like saying eating organic vegetables and grass fed beef is a substitute for a Big Mac. I’m still going to go to McDonald’s to hang out with my friends, but I’m not going to eat that crap.
Running with the metaphor:
What you do is nutritionally necessary for everyone; those of us who know we need phytonutrients have as part of our ministries a call to lovingly educate the McDonalds theology crowd. We don’t need to force-feed them Naked Bible kale; we just need to let them know their current diet is missing a lot of what they need. If I can point someone your way, I think the content you create will win. Once they eat a couple meals of real food, they will be hooked. You’re the Trader Joe’s. Us flying monkeys in the cheap seats are the annoying uncle who keeps telling their family, “You gotta try Paleo, man!”
And…annoying flying monkey uncles have to eat, too.
Wow — and I understand the part about being disturbed even though I’m a scholar — because I meet people like you and others who frequent the blog (or at work) who aren’t trained for ministry, but yet have a much better grasp of so many things than pastors I have met over the years. They just think clearly and digest a lot of material. I’ve wondered more than once why I don’t see that coming from “trained” ministry and seminary students. It bothers me.
*Activate sarcasm font*
Who needs all that serpent-deity, Jewish astrology entertainment Mike when we have all these hurting people out here that need parenting tips formulated in an alliteration that serves as an object-lesson for the gospel? How on earth is sanctified dirt helpful to a hurting world?
Also, it really puts people off when you refer to Greek and Hebrew (unless you are reciting the ‘Abba means daddy’ illustration we evangelicals love) or when you mention that you have a PhD–basically anything that would academically distinguish you from John Hagee. Our congregation needs to know everyone is qualified to understand and interpret the Bible.
In fact, we aren’t saying you wasted decades of your life looking at language flashcards, but we are implying it. We have the Holy Spirit to interpret scripture for us. We don’t need the help of satanic pagan texts to understand the true God. You should have spent your long schooling career reading John MacArthur and Augustine’s books instead if you wanted to understand what the Bible is really about.
Sarcasm font crashed halfway through that! Quite funny – thanks! I have had people (Christians) ask me why I wasted my life pursuing biblical studies, though.
Yes
Yes
Having you teach more is a good thing for the Christian community, and a bad thing for Christian traditions.
Christo et Doctrinae!!!!
LOL – cutting to the chase!
Responses to your questions…
1. I would love to see this kind of content from you on a regular basis. What I get from church is very very basic and I am constantly searching online for good content I can use on a regular basis. The content you have provided through your books and sites is excellent. To have new teaching regularly would be fantastic.
2. I would not use it to replace church because I do love the community and fellowship I have there – but more in-depth teaching would be a very welcome supplement.
Glad to hear you have a solid community, and your own tenacity in supplementing your content diet is appreciated; it’s admirable.
I would definitely be interested in this kind of thing. I am one of the teachers at our church and have often incorporated things I learned from the old Memra courses into my teaching. People often come up to me afterwards with glowing comments about this type of information.
very good to know; always interested to know how things are spread and re-purposed.
Martin Hengel said, “if all you know is the NT, you do not know the NT”. I think he was not only right, not knowing the OT narrative can lead us into heresies.
Your area of expertise is very important and it needs to be factored in to our overall theology for accuracy. The more the merrier from my perspective.
Wow, a Hengel quotation! And what he said is spot on.
I’ve grown up in the Baptist church and honestly can’t think of too many times I’ve been intellectually challenged by my church(s) teaching. It wasn’t until a few years ago when I stumbled across you on Coast to Coast that I got a good introduction to how interesting the Bible is. Church is BORING and seems to be the same dog and pony show every week(no wander young adults are leaving the church in droves). God/Jesus/The Bible however are not and I’m very grateful for scholars such as yourself that have shown me that faith and reason go hand in hand. I’ve been very discontent, especially recently, with how little substance and actual Bible teaching I’ve been getting at my Church. I hate that I have to search outside to the walls of the church, but I’ve learned more from podcast’s and online material in the last few years than I have my 31 years in church. I don’t have a good answer for how to fix the church at large, but it weighs heavily on my heart. I believe there is a significant percentage of Christians that feel the same way I do. I don’t know why pastors seem so scared to go beyond basic, feelgood, superficial Christian doctrine, but I don’t think change is going to happen until we are all willing to get a little uncomfortable.
So to answer your original question, YES! I think you doing a weekly podcast/video would be a huge blessing!
Thanks for being so frank. I just get the sense that there’s a cohort in every church that’s taking matters into their own hands and feeding themselves. It bothers me, too.
I personally would love to see you on a WEEKLY basis bring to us a deeper word of God through video. I would love to see you work through your bible and bring to life all the various levels of cultures and worldviews which are working behind the scenes of every scripture.
There is so much religious confusion out here as well as religious pimpin going on (taking poor people’s money)that it’s hard to know if I’m doing the right things with my church or am I simply contributing to the problem that already exist. So, I’m ready to know the differences between the “business” of the church in contrast to its “calling”.
This would definitely be a supplement for me and would put some meat on my bones. This would be the perfect supplement for a starving Body of Christians.