[[UPDATE: Talk about good timing! I guess the person who wrote this article, dated today, does need Columbo; –MSH]]
I’m hoping my reference to the venerable TV detective doesn’t date me too much here!
Way back in 2009 I wrote the only post on this blog about the so-called “Sirius Mystery.” This mystery has to do with how a primitive African tribe, the Dogon, had advanced knowledge of a system of stars that make up what we see with the naked eye as one star — Sirius. My post was brief, directing readers’ attention to another brief, but well done, post on the Bad Archaeology website devoted to the subject, as well as two articles on how the Dogon could have visually seen “beyond” the single star Sirius. (After all, that is the issue — how did they know that naked eye Sirius is actually a cluster of stars?) It doesn’t take much imagination to discern that this is serious (pardon the pun) fodder for ancient astronaut believers.
It’s time to revisit the “Sirius Mystery” in a bit more detail. There has been some additional recent work on the subject by anthropologists to which I want to draw your attention. But to make it easier to follow, let’s start at the beginning.
The Dogon and Sirius
The Bad Archaeology page on the Sirius Mystery has summarize the basic details well:
In 1976, Robert K G Temple (born 1945), an American living in the UK, published what was to become a seminal work of Bad Archaeology, The Sirius Mystery. A revised edition was published in 1998 with the new subtitle New scientific evidence of alien contact 5,000 years ago…. Temple begins with the work of Marcel Griaule (1898-1956) and Germaine Dieterlen (1903-1999), a pair of French anthropologists who worked in what is now Mali from 1931 to 1956. They reported an apparently anomalous knowledge of astronomy that formed part of the traditional lore of the Dogon, a people of the central plateau of Mali. This knowledge is alleged to include accounts of the rings of Saturn, the presence of four moons orbiting Jupiter and, most surprisingly of all, an account of two companions of the star Sirius. Griaule first published this data in Dieu d’eau (‘God of Water’, 1948), in which he records his conversations with a blind hunter, Ogotemmêli, who claimed to have extensive knowledge of Dogon lore, much of which was restricted to certain tribal elders. Griaule and Dieterlen were able to synthesise the cosmogony from Ogotemmêli’s statements. Temple was most impressed by the Dogon belief in a complex system of stars making up what we see as the single star, Sirius. This is the brightest star in our skies and, according to the Dogon, as reported by Griaule and Dieterlen, is actually a bright star with several smaller (even ‘invisible’) companions. Focusing especially on a representation of the system drawn by Ogotemmêli (who, it must be remembered, was blind), Temple recognised the highly elliptical orbit of Sirius B, a white dwarf first photographed in 1970, around the principal star of the system, Sirius A. Moreover, Temple found reference to a third component of the system, dubbed Sirius C by the astronomers who accepted its existence (its existence had been suggested but never observed). According to the Dogon, this knowledge had been imparted by the Nommo, fish-like water spirits, in the distant past.
From this information, Temple goes on to theorize that the “fish-like water spirits” were extraterrestrials. He finds proof for his notion from the Babylonian writer Berosssus who wrote of a hybrid fish-man who “emerged from the Persian Gulf to teach humanity various arts of civilisation. This creature is thought to be the Uan (or Uanna) of Babylonian myth, sometimes identified with Adapa, the equally mythical first king of Eridu, also identified by some with Atrahasis, the hero of the Babylonian version of the flood legend.” (Bad Archaeology)
While this string of non-sequiturs on the ancient Mesopotamian material is interesting enough, I want to stick to the item that started Temple down this rabbit hole: the Dogon knowledge of Sirius.
Recent Work on the Dogon and Sirius: 1980s and 1990s
In my earlier post on this subject, I linked readers to two essays from the book Blacks in Science: Ancient & Modern (Journal of African Civilizations), by Ivan Van Sertima (Transaction Publishers, 1983). The first essay speculated about whether the Dogon may have had a primitive optical instrument and, more importantly, how early Chinese records indicated that astronomers had been able to make naked eye observations of one of Jupiter’s moons. Another example came from an 1852 letter from a missionary who documented the same observation. Further, under optimal conditions, people in contemporary times with good visual acuity can see two galaxies (M31, the Andromeda) and M33 (a spiral galaxy in the constellation Triangulum) with the naked eye. These examples are concrete, secure parallels to the Dogon knowledge of the Sirius cluster. No aliens needed. The article went on to discuss techniques used by ancients for making such observations (called “dark eye” techniques). The second essay discusses how the Dogon may have been able to see Sirius B, a star in the cluster that, due to its high magnitude, should not be viewable to the naked eye. Collectively, these essays show there is no reason to suspect that a member of the ancient Dogon tribe, or others at any other place on the globe, thousands of years ago, could not see these things. This undermines the entire premise of Temple and his Sirius Mystery.
The Bad Archaeology site notes:
… by the time Temple had published the second edition of The Sirius Mystery in 1998, the whole question of the Dogon’s apparently inexplicable knowledge of Sirius had been blown apart. No-one had questioned Griaule and Dieterlen’s findings until the early 1990s. And this is where the problems for the hypothesis began. In 1991, the anthropologist Walter van Beek undertook fieldwork among the Dogon, hoping to find evidence for their knowledge of Sirius. As the earlier authors had indicated that aorund 15% of the adult males were initiated into the Sirius lore, this ought to have been a relatively easy task. However, van Beek was unable to find anyone who knew about Sirius B. As ought to have been obvious from the outset, Griaule and Dieterlen’s reliance on a single informant – Ogotemmêli – severely compromises the validity of their data. But it gets worse. The Dogon themselves do not agree that Sigu tolo is Sirius: it is the bright star that appears to announce the beginning of a festival (sigu), which some identify with Venus, while others claim it is invisible. To polo is not Sirius B, as it sometimes approaches Sigu tolo, making it brighter, while it is sometimes more distant, when it appears as a group of twinkling stars (which sounds like a description of the Pleiades). All in all, the ‘inexplicable’ astronomical knowledge turns out to be too confused to bear the interpretation put on it by Griaule and Dieterlen.
The research of van Beek (and co-authors) alluded to above can be found in this 1991 article:
Walter E. A. van Beek, R. M. A. Bedaux, Suzanne Preston Blier, Jacky Bouju, PeterIan Crawford, Mary Douglas, Paul Lane, Claude Meillassoux, “The Dogon Restudied: A Field Evaluation of the Work of Marcel Griaule [and Comments and Replies],” Current Anthropology Vol. 32, No. 2 (Apr., 1991), pp. 139-167
The abstract of the article notes:
“This restudy of the Dogon of Mali asks whether the texts produced by Marcel Griaule depict a society that is recognizable to the re- searcher and to the Dogon today and answers the question more or less in the negative. The picture of Dogon religion presented in Dieu d’eau and Le renard pale proved impossible to replicate in the field, even as the shadowy remnant of a largely forgotten past. The reasons for this, it is suggested, lie in the particular field situation of Griaule’s research, including features of the ethnographer’s approach, the political setting, the experience and predilections of the informants, and the values of Dogon culture.”
Note: In what follows, van Beek uses the following abbreviations for books written by Griaule on the Dogon:
DE = In Dieu d’eau: Entretiens avec Ogotemmeli [“God of Water: Conversations with Ogotemmeli”] (Griaule 1948, hereafter DE); this is the book that made Griaule world-famous. It was published before his collaboration with Dieterlen — the next book:
RP = Le renard pale [“The Pale Fox”] (Griaule and Dieterlen I965, hereafter RP); this book is the one referred to by Bad Archaeology. It is the one that contains most of the material about Sirius and the Dogon.
I recommend the article to readers, as it has a very good summary of Dogon cosmology (pp. 140-141, 148-151), drawing on DE and RP, and the fact that the cosmological recounting of the single informant of Griaule and Dieterlen (Ogotemmêli) differs from all other Dogon accounts. This means that, among other issues, the source upon which Robert Temple based his ancient astronaut speculations are quite idiosyncratic, as the Bad Archaeology site noted. Van Beek goes even further than that, though. Quoting from his re-study, Van Beek notes that the views of Ogotemmêli are simply not recognizable to those leaders he talked to (p. 148) and “that Sirius is a double star is unknown; astronomy is of very little importance in religion. Dogon society has no initiatory secrets beyond the complete mastery of publicly known texts . . . The water spirit Nommo is not a central figure in Dogon thought and has none of the characteristics of a creator or a redeemer … Cosmological symbolism is not the basis of any Dogon cultural institutions . . . Confronted with parts of the stories provided by Ogotemmeli or given in the Renard pale, my informants emphatically state that they have never heard of them.” (p. 148)
On page 149 van Beek adds:
Is Sirius a double star? The ethnographic facts are quite straightforward. The Dogon, of course, know Sirius as a star (it is after all the brightest in the sky), calling it dana tolo, the hunter’s star (the game and the dogs are represented by Orion’s belt). Knowledge of the stars is not important either in daily life or in ritual. The position of the sun and the phases of the moon are more pertinent for Dogon reckoning. No Dogon outside the circle of Griaule’s informants had ever heard of sigu tolo or p6 tolo, nor had any Dogon even heard of eme ya tolo (according to Griaule in RP Dogon names for Sirius and its star companions). Most important, no one, even within the circle of Griaule informants, had ever heard or understood that Sirius was a double star (or, according to RP, even a triple one, with B and C orbiting A). Consequently, the purported knowledge of the mass of Sirius B or the orbiting time was absent. The scheduling of the sigu ritual is done in several ways in Yugo Doguru, none of which has to do with the stars.” (pp. 149-150)
In a nutshell, the foundation of Robert Temple’s Sirius Mystery (and the nonsense that has accrued to it since its publication) consists of three conversations with one Dogon tribesman, whose ideas differ from all subsequent Dogon elders interviewed to date. (And then there are the flaws in what Temple does with this idiosyncratic musings). Nice. A word like “flimsy” doesn’t begin to tell the story.
Contemporary Work on the Dogon: 2004
In 2004 Dr. van Beek published an essay in a scholarly journal that is, in essence, a retrospect of his work on Griaule of 1991 and the Sirius silliness:
Walter E. A. van Beek, “Haunting Griaule: Experiences from the Restudy of the Dogon,” History in Africa 31 (2004), pp. 43-68
Van Beek begins the article whimsically:
“It really was a chance occasion, just before Christmas 2003. On my way to the Dogon area I had greeted my friends in Sangha, and was speaking with a Dutch friend, when a French tourist lady suddenly barged into the hall of the hotel and asked me: “There should be a cav- ern with a mural depicting Sirius and the position of all the planets. I saw it in a book. Where is it?”. My friend smiled wrily, amused by the irony of situation: by chance the lady had fallen upon the one who had spent decennia to disprove this kind of “information”. “In what book?” I asked, and named a few. It was none of these, and she could not tell me. Cautiously (maybe she had planned her whole trip around this Sirius “experience”) I explained to her that though there was a lot to see, this particular mural did not exist. She left immediately, proba- bly convinced she stumbled on a real ignoramus.”
I wonder what book the lady had read (!)
Van Beek’s essay tells the reader how his decades-long interest in the Dogon began (it had nothing to do with Griaule) and how that interest drew him into pop (cult, fringe) archeology and anthropology. It’s an interesting, light read for the most part. Some excerpts are worth citing for our purposes here:
But at the time-we are writing 1979 for the start of my own field- work-the Griaule ethnography had already come under criticism. The most severe came from a Belgian dissertation by Dirk Lettens, defended at Nijmegen University under Albert Trouwborst (Lettens 1971). Later, after the publication of my Current Anthropology article, Trouwborst-with whom I shared many interuniversity committees, as well as the board of the Dutch Africanist Association-confided me that at the time he thought Lettens overly critical: surely it could not have been that bad. But Lettens was right on target. His title, Mythagogie et Mystification, still is unsurpassed as a characterization of Griaule’s post-1948 writings. Although criticism was given in many countries, (Saccone 1984), the discussion through David Tait (1950), Mary Douglas (1967, 1968) and eventually James Clifford (1983) was to be much more influential. (p. 48)
One wonders why Robert Temple’s work on the “Sirius Mystery” fails to interact with these criticisms of Griaule. Simply put, that isn’t how scholarship is done.
Van Beek continues:
All these discussions, however, were based on secondary sources. It was astonishing how little genuine fieldwork had been done after Griaule’s untimely death in 1956. The publication of Le Renard pale was clearly the outcome of his own work, finished by Germaine Dieterlen. She was still publishing, wholly within his tradition. The same holds for the only other major publication based on field data, the work of Genevieve Calame-Griaule, his daughter. She published a major study on Dogon language cum culture, in which she combined her father’s approach with the results of her own linguistic research. . . . The problem started with what is still the best known publication of Griaule, his small book describing his talks with a blind Dogon elder Ogotemmelli, under the title Dieu d’eau (Griaule 1948) (=DE above), translated in English under its French subtitle: Conversations with Ogotemmelli. . . . The book was a tremendous success and was translated into over twenty languages. (p. 49)
Griaule’s ethnography proved to be incoherent. Griaule’s later publications, which incidentally never could match his first success nor receive the wide circulation and renown of Ogotemmelli, depicted yet another Dogon culture. The posthumously published Le Renard pale (Griaule/Dieterlen 1956) and the articles leading up to it (Griaule 1954, Griaule/Dieterlen 1950) came up with even “deeper” myths, systems of classification, and a totally different creation story, at least with a totally different construction of the myth. These two sets of creation myths, of 1948 and 1956, are totally incon- sistent with each other … (p. 50)
Renard pale (= RP above) picked up one major following, somewhat to the embarrassment of Dieterlen. One of its spectacular “findings” had to do with astronomy. The Dogon ritual calendar allegedly was dominat- ed by a star system, that of Sirius, the main star in the constellation of Canis Major. The message of the book was that Sirius had a small white dwarf companion, Sirius B, whose revolving time punctuated the long-term rhythm of Dogon ritual life, such as the famous sigi cycle. An even smaller companion (the presumed Sirius C) then circled Sirius B. The notion of Sirius as a double star is an astronomical fact (though Sirius C is not known and has never been observed). But then, how did the Dogon know this? The naked eye cannot detect the white dwarf. The most extended treatment of this problem was given by Robert Temple in a book that has long haunted popular astronomy, The Sirius Mystery, published in 1976, (reprinted in 1999). Temple took the Dogon data as unvarnished truth and questioned how this knowledge arrived at the Bandiagara cliff. He found the answers in Egypt, and thus became a kind of trailblazer for a whole generation of authors who were even less restrained. For those convinced of extra-terrestrial visits to the planet Earth, an idea very much in vogue during the late seventies … “Cosmonautologists” like von Diniken [sic], Guerrier (1975) and many others of their ilk had a field day with this material and the Dogon enigma quickly became established as one of the pillars in their empir- ical grounding of the “flying saucer vision” and extraterrestrial inter- pretations of the pyramids. In their reasoning the implications of the Dogon “facts” were clear: there was no way the Dogon without any astronomical instruments could know these exotic facts. Definitely this implied that they must have been taught these astronomical lessons by extraterrestrials. Thus, the Dogon notion of Sirius B (C was conve- niently forgotten) came on a par with the riddles of the Gizeh pyra- mids, the Nazca lines and Stonehenge. (pp. 50-51)
The article has a good deal else. I especially like the part where, after years spent becoming accepted by the Dogon, he began to carefully expose them to the ideas that Griaule had “learned” from Ogotemmelli, only to have his Dogon friends burst out laughing! One of the major services is van Beek’s lengthy descriptions (with illustrations) of how Griaule came to create the myths of the Dogon himself (which were uncritically absorbed by Temple and passed on to the populace in his book). Basically, there was a good amount of cultural mis-communication. Van Beek relates several anecdotes you can read for yourself, but his own epiphany in this regard is worth quoting here:
Recently, in her excellent study of Dogon masks, Anne Doquet has zoomed in on one aspect I rather neglected, i.e. the conversations with Ogotemmelli themselves, and the fieldwork genesis of the first “Griaulian myths” (Doquet 1999:90-91). Analyzing Griaule’s field notes in detail from microfiches, she noticed the two-fold influence Griaule had exerted on the material he collected with the old man. This period, from 20 October 1946 to 2 December 1946, marked his famous conversations. The field notes are a haphazard collection of ref- erences to Dogon symbols and pieces of mythology, a veritable bricolage of odds and ends, without coherence or internal consistency. However, the book gives an account of a series of systematic revela- tions, each startling myth and intricate symbol tying in nicely with the great revelations of the former day, and logically leading to the revela- tions yet to come. Recently, in her excellent study of Dogon masks, Anne Doquet has zoomed in on one aspect I rather neglected, i.e. the conversations with Ogotemmelli themselves, and the fieldwork genesis of the first “Griaulian myths” (Doquet 1999:90-91). Analyzing Griaule’s field notes in detail from microfiches, she noticed the two-fold influence Griaule had exerted on the material he collected with the old man. This period, from 20 October 1946 to 2 December 1946, marked his famous conversations. The field notes are a haphazard collection of ref- erences to Dogon symbols and pieces of mythology, a veritable brico- lage of odds and ends, without coherence or internal consistency. However, the book gives an account of a series of systematic revela- tions, each startling myth and intricate symbol tying in nicely with the great revelations of the former day, and logically leading to the revela- tions yet to come. (p. 59)
Van Beek’s account of how his 1991 critique of Griaule and his co-author Dieterlen was received — by Dieterlen herself — is also of interest:
Before submitting it to the editor, I decided to give Dieterlen a chance at first reaction. She read English only with difficulty, as I knew, so I translated the article into French, sent her a copy, and made an appointment. When I arrived at her apartment in Paris, she received me as gracefully as ever. She had been expecting a publication for some time, and appreciated my effort to give her the chance at a first reaction and my effort at making a (passable) French version. She had also admired the French version of the Time-Life book (Pern/Alexander/van Beek 1982) I had sent her some time before. In that publication I had avoided the question of Griaulian validity, as a book for the general public should not be burdened with a detailed academic debate. I braced myself for a long critique, but she had just one question: “Pourqois le publier?” Only that, why publish? She had no answer to my arguments, in fact during our two-hour conversation that followed she never ventured into the content of the article at all, but just pleaded not to publish it. It was, evidently, also the most difficult question to answer, and one I had been reflecting on very long. I answered, truth- fully I think, that publishing is the very soul of science, and that debate is the way to proceed in getting closer to the truth. She had no comments on that, but instead started reminiscing on the past. (pp. 62-63; emphasis mine – MSH)
Think about that. The only other person alive who could rebut van Beek’s criticisms of the Dogon “knowledge” had nothing to say in rebuttal, even in private. All she wanted was for the criticisms not to be published.
How telling.
How Lovecraftian! So darn cool it just HAS to be true!
funny
Why does this Dogon hoax sound so much like Margaret Mead’s Coming of Age in Samoa, collection techniques in the 1920s? Just like the Dogon hoax, it was impossible to replicate the segment culture documented by Mead. According to Freeman, one of her few major subjects even recanted in the 1980s.
The answer may lie in the need for fantasy and the fantastic, which is fine for a fiction writer, but not so great for cultural anthropologist. It’s odd how consistently basic scientific method is ignored in the name of agenda or fame.
good question
your wrong, out here to try and guide us in the direction furthest from the truth in order to keeo secrets hidden… SITCHIN IS RIGHT
wow – this is a powerful, data-driven argument. Just what I expect from Sitchin defenders.
http://www.robert-temple.com/papers/Sirius-AnswerCritics.pdf
Sorry, your post is not consistant with much of the previous research conducted.
One example is that you fail to mention that Temple took on the task of bringing together decades old independent anthropology writings, most that were filed and unread for decades themselves, and quoted them. You like so many others are mixing the sources.
There have been many respected persons and groups look into this subject. Astro-science related sites claim that you are dead wrong that anyone from this time period could have remotely predicted later scientific descoveries.
But, we know that in general the science are quick to call anything outside the community approved textbook a hoax. Since most science is funded by government institutions the “truth” can be political an somewhat factual. Anyone that gets off the political correctness path is automatically denied promotions and basically burned at the stake.
I don’t pretend to have an answer to this very interesting and complex issue.
That said, your explanation of this being a Hoax is no different than past “experts” refusing to beleive their own eyes and physical experience.
Like this creature: The surgeon Robert Knox later explained that because the specimens arrived in England via the Indian Ocean, naturalists suspected that Chinese sailors, who were well known for their skill at stitching together hybrid creatures, might have been playing some kind of joke upon them. (See the Feejee Mermaid hoax.) “Aware of the monstrous impostures which the artful Chinese had so frequently practised on European adventurers,” Knox noted, “the scientific felt inclined to class this rare production of nature with eastern mermaids and other works of art.” Later as the scientific community watched live ones swimming in London, they still refused to dismiss the hoax!
This was absolutely not a data-driven argument.
It is tough researching this idea. On one side are all the crazy spirit nuts and on the other side are the self-proclaimed high-priest of closed minded science.
uh, so please provide us all with this research. I;ll bet NONE of it was peer reviewed. How about a Starbucks gift certificate bet on that?
I thought this argument was finished years ago? Sitchin is wrong. Great site, most of the data matches up with my own research. Love it!
You’re welcome – do you have a website I can share with readers?
Hey MSH, IDK if you’ve been to UM (unexplained-mysteries) before, but we have an army of people, who respect your research on Sitchin, etc. Our site would be a great place to post some of your research. We have been trying to educate the general public because, of shows like Ancient Aliens and because, of millions of pseudoscience books available.
MSH, I’m assuming you’re M. Heiser. I can only imagine the amount of criticism you get!
yes, MSH = Mike Heiser. Feel free to link to whatever posts you want to (if that is what you mean in the comment) and to sitchiniswrong.com. If you mean something else, contact me by email.
Read the comments and you’ll get an idea of the vitriol. But I have deleted 3-4 comments due to extreme profanities (I may have missed some, but I don’t want to waste too much time looking). I get more of that sort of stuff in email. Google filters are SO handy.
Thanks for the reply MSH!
I was inviting you to UM (unexplained-mysteries.com/forum). There’s well-rounded people who have had great feedback on your research. If you don’t have time, that’s understandable. We have an Alternative History section, which gets tons of traffic.
I deal with the same sitchin believers, everyday. I know how you feel. It was actually the AAT that got me looking into history, from actual historians! lol Keep up the good work! It would be nice to see you debate Daniken on TV!! I would love it! Take it easy.
thanks, but I just have time to participate on forums. But thanks!
Hey, M. Hessier, thanks!—I referenced you in a research paper I just wrote in my astronomy course this week.
(Heiser) – you’re welcome.
this just to keep the blood suckin jews in power.
what a winner this reply is!
I appreciate your scholarship your clearly stated point of view, which is to defend the Bible and all that you believe comes with it. I’m not such a scholar, but I am a researcher. I don’t buy the modern interpretation of the Christian story. The whole human origin dilemma is a huge subject that no one person can ever fully comprehend. We must broaden our research to include all points of view, and use a multi-discipline approach, ask questions and get facts, without a bias either way. The truth may be shocking. Ancient teachings that you almost certainly have not heard of state that our sun is involved with Sirius in a binary system, and that star is also involved in a much larger celestial circulation. The Dogon most likely actually saw sirius B when it was closer, thousands of years ago. naturally their teachings have decayed since then, so all we have left are strange concepts. The “fish people” may well refer to an astrological sign. and the Sirius B orbit of 50 years makes an excellent timekeeping mechanism, IF you can see it, which apparently they could, at least long ago.
You’re assuming a lot here. What the heck is the “modern interpretation” of the Christian story? What does “modern” mean anyway? (post – Renaissance?). I don’t care for denomination positions across the board, so I wouldn’t care for “modern interpretations” either, despite the vagueness of your wording.
The fact of the Dogon stuff is quite evident; it’s made up. Temple has ONE (count him) African folk-teller guy whose views his own kinsman thought wacky. That has ZERO to do with the Bible (ancient or modern). Nice evidence.
so the Epic of Gilgamesh is not real ?
it’s a real piece of literature (that isn’t about aliens). In other words, only the interpretation about aliens is a crock.
Place two books side-by-side and ask which one will sell the most copies? The first is a well-researched scientific and academic study of all known existing Sumerian texts with a basic summary of their content. The second is an exciting explanation of “hidden” tablets that reveal information mainstream scientists ignore because of shocking truths they are afraid to admit. The answer is obvious. Why? Truth is boring and fantasy is exciting. It is a shame, but it is reality. I contend that many people have a longing to be “in the know” and to have access to what they believe to be hidden knowledge. It makes them feel special and important. This is one of the dynamics involved in debates over the ancient astronaut and Sitchin theories. When I was young and naive I read with great interest something about some kind of grand politico-religious conspiracy and wrote to the author for more information and available evidence. The response I received woke me up because they stated that not only did they have no evidence for their claims but that in their view the lack of evidence was the very proof they were correct in their conjectures. People are not well informed of scientific method and therefore easily swayed by someone who appears on TV or writes a book using all of these previous themes: lack of evidence IS the evidence; most academics are part of a grand hierarchy and cannot be trusted; something important has been hidden from the public, etc… There are people who will argue Sitchin theories with you until they are red-faced fully convinced he was right despite the complete and utter lack of evidence. It was made up out of thin air, but they won’t accept it. It’s a psychological blockage. It makes me wonder how easily it would have been for George Lucas to write Star Wars as a “hidden truth” and how many today would stand by it as real. There is an old adage which says “people prefer to be humbugged”, and how true it has proven to be.
“truth is boring and fantasy is exciting” – yeah, I’ve lived that one, and still do.
This is a prize-winning comment; it provides insights that I can vouch for as to how the “alternative reality / history” brokerage really works. The dirty little secret Sitchinites don’t know is that insiders on several radio and internet shows they listen to that promote all this think what he says is bogus just like me (some of them think even worse, but I tend to think Sitchin wasn’t a “new world order operative” or “alien in disguise” – !). I know because I’ve been on all the shows, and conversations do happen before show time and between breaks. It’s about entertainment, not information (and especially not about “truth”).
so you claim these “shows” you participate in are for “entertainment”? yet youre attempting to get the “truth” out there about sitchin (youre obviously obsessed with the man, you cant ever stop bringing him up)? why would anyone take anything you say serious when you claim to take part in shows that are for(in your very own words) entertainment? poor misguided soul, i bet king james would be very proud of you.
yep; one show every 15 months on Sitchin (and at Coast’s request to boot). Yep, that’s an obsession all right.
I don’t believe in the ancient aliens theory, but I do wonder how the ancients were able to build some of these megalithic stone structures. To say aliens helped the ancients is to take credit away from human ingenuity and intelligence. We may not fully understand how they did it, but to say aliens helped them? come on, where’s the proof?
There’s a lot on this blog about this; check out the archives.
Having just slogged through “the Sirius Mystery,” I must agree that the reasoning is highly tendentious and often borders on “non-sequitur.” Nevertheless, the criticism presented here is also suspect; to state that there have been naked eye observations of one of Jupiter’s moons and of two galaxies and then to leap to the conclusion that Sirius-B can be seen with the naked eye is itself a perfect non-sequitur and perfect nonsense. Anyone with reasonable vision, outside city limits, can make out the blur of the Andromeda galaxy in peripheral vision. A cheap pair of binoculars will reveal the four Galilean moons of Jupiter. Sirius-B, by contrast, was first photographed in 1970 using one of the world’s most powerful telescopes. One might as well claim that the naked eye could distinguish a candle flame on a distant mountain top from the sun rising behind it.
I am prepared to accept that the Dogon might not have the knowledge of Sirius some claim. But if it can be conclusively shown that some peoples, currently or historically, have had indigenous traditions that do reveal pre-contact knowledge of a white dwarf orbiting Sirius, the mystery must be said to remain, however much we might scoff at Temple et al.’s flights of fancy.
Hello all, just want to say I am a Maori by descent I remember my grandfather telling me do not let the white man tell you your history, we have have been here Aotearoa (New Zealand) for over 3 thousand yrs and also there were 3 other races of people, they were red heads (pale people) fairy people (robust dwarf people) and the morihori (gentle giant people). These people were either wiped out or integrated with the 7 waka (canoe) that came here. When Captain James Cook showed my people the map of New Zealand they told him it was wrong. My people navigated all over. Our old tongue is known with the nomads of Egypt, Easter Island and some tribes of South America. What you do not know is that the oceans were a highway for us that modern Archaeology will tell you other wise. They will push there ideology as true and the only explanation that they come up. What I do know is that most archaeologist do not know how to interpret myth and legend properly as a story is told it is complex and you need to understand the way they view the world not the other way round as you will miss it all together as to what is being said.
if you read the material, that white man got the Dogon history (that did not reinforce the ET view) *from a Dogon*!
THANKS Mike! This is a perfect example of why I enjoy your site (total), because you enjoy clarifying FACTS, and differentiating from FICTION / misinterpretations, etc.
Again, this reveals why DEEP STUDY often takes much more than just (25 years that Temple spent with the DOGON), first hand experience, but also, objectivity, some skepticism, and a desire for finding the TRUTH. And obviously broader research than one person can achieve.
While this particular tribe’s LEGEND isn’t necessarily SUPER significant, it is a “piece of the puzzle” that helps us determine that: “ET’s” exist, OR: that they’re something else, OR: that they are simply men imagining….Thanks mike, this helps!.
you’re welcome
Thanks for the interesting read Michael, you make some interesting points. However, I will stick to the true experts like Sitchin and Von Daniken with their interpretations of the AAT. I still can not make out whether you are brainwashed by mainstream archaeology or you work for the government to deceive the general public. Since you have quite a following, still much smaller than Sitchin and Von Daniken, I still enjoy reading your publications, because one it makes sense to debate ones interpretations every though they are better than 90% correct. No disrespect, you maybe right on a few issues. Thanks.
Sitchin and von Daniken WOULD be the true experts on their own fantasies. I’ll stick with the Dogon people who had no idea with respect to the mythological BS one unknown (and untraceable) person said they said.
Hybrid fish-man, “Jed, there’s a giant frog in the cement pond.” Granny describing a scuba diver in the Beverly Hillbillies.
loved it – the “cement pond” always made me laugh!
Hello Mr. MSH,
I’ve been reading your article and the comments below. I have a question.
You maintain that the Dogon could see sirius with the naked eye… I’ve read that they keep rocks mimicking the orbits of Sirius A,B,C.. is that true?
If so, I would think it is truly impossible to see the orbits with the naked eye, wouldn’t you agree?
Just asking… thank you.
This isn’t my (original) contention. The work I am citing had the anthropologist ask the Dogon themselves about their understanding of the star, and it didn’t conform to Temple’s assertion. The presumed drawing that supposedly supports this (the rocks idea) is shown to be flawed in this post (click out to the Bad Archaeology links – if the “rock diagrams” are represented in this drawing, its coherence is in big trouble). The capabilities of Naked eye astronomy are discussed in one (forget which link) of the article links in this post:
http://michaelsheiser.com/PaleoBabble/2009/06/seriously-the-dogon-and-sirius/
The larger point of this post is that the Dogon seem to NOT know of this “unseeable” star anyway, rendering your question moot.
MSH – First time I came across your posts. Must be tough job proving other people’s work wrong. Too bad Van Beek could not find the right man where he could exact the details he needed. But that does not necessarily mean that Temple’s work was a hoax. Natives are a lot smarter than what we think. Some have the ability to know your real motive even before you speak. They also know how to protect their customs and traditions. They are usually very sensitive and a wrong approach may lead to an unproductive meeting.
What is the agenda you are promoting aside from proving Sitchin wrong?
The issue wasn’t whether Temple’s native was smart — please read the material more closely. The issue was that OTHER natives (a number of them) had no inkling as to the story Temple’s native told. Adding THAT fact to the other Sirus problems makes for a very weak case for Temple.
MSH – Thanks for your reply. Makes me wonder why Van Beek was not able to locate Ogotommelli. The bits of information that he gave to Temple may not actually be widely known among the ordinary natives or even among their leaders. As it turns out, Ogotommelli was the only one who knew about Sirius and its accompanying stars. Being a blind hunter, he must be someone special among the natives. His knowledge may not be actually first-hand, it may just have been handed down to him by his grandparents. Or, by other people before he met Temple. It may be that this information was only for a privileged few. Like in today’s world, we can not be all linguists, or archeologists or astronomers. Somebody has to till the fields, or drive for us, or even drive us crazy. You see, in tribes they also live out differing roles. Was Ogotommelli a seer, a keeper of this knowledge,or a plain outcast of his village who may have considered him crazy. Or, was he just a creation of Temple?
But for sure, there was something brought forth by Van Beek that was worth debating about – Ogotommelli and his story about Sirius, fact or just a journalistic creation?
“the only one who knew about Sirius” — this is not a good argument for this material being a “Dogon tradition” in the first place. And there is more to it (see the quotes from the article; no need to reproduce them here).
so who do you believe bilt the pyramids_?
The Egyptians.
since Van Beek was trying to prove Giaule and Dieterlen were lying who’s to say that what he said that dieterlen did or did not say in their conversation is not lies, was this conversation comfirmed by Dieterlen, if not, this is a weak point in your argument. also speculation of a primitive optical instrument, i assume speculation means no proof at all, another weak point in your argument and the chinese and Jupitor is also a weak point and you fail to prove where this knowledge of sirius A,B,C came from since it wasnt known.”According to the Dogon, this knowledge had been imparted by the Nommo, fish-like water spirits, in the distant past.”From this information, Temple goes on to theorize that the “fish-like water spirits” were extraterrestrials.If Temple believed the former, would this not be a logical assumption, how else would the fish like spirits know of Sirius. since VB did not speak to Ogotemmêli how could he confirm what as said and not said and speaking to elders 40 years later is no proof at all because in my view the existence of Ogotemmêli and the knowledge he passed on would be denied to outsiders as i assume Ogotemmêli was breaking dogon laws by passing this information to an outsider.
The arguments made by yourself and BadArchaeology are weak neither you ,Badarchaeology and Giaule can provide sound evidence to back you claims.
Again, where is the Dogon evidence (you are missing the gist of the argument). If these “observations” were not observations in the first place — that is, they were fabricated by Temple’s source, or the drawings are misunderstood, there is no need to even care about “optic speculation.” Where is the incontrovertible evidence *from the Dogon* for Sirius B? THAT is the place where this has to start. And Temple’s only source is flatly contradicted — and even denied — by other Dogon.
you have deleted my comment and badarchaelology has deleted my comments which were not offensive to you or anyone else you have only proved 1 thing your frauds, i can only laugh, so much for the truth
I deleted a duplicate comment. Its duplicate should be in here.
Is there any evidence apart from beliefs, because you require concrete evidence when you dont agree with someones theory.
YOU have it wrong (again): I require concrete evidence of a theory before I believe it. What Temple has is ONE Dogon whose words are contradicted by a number of other Dogon. And then there are the places where Temple then moves on to simply misread other ancient material. If this were a court case, Temple’s case would go down in flames. I need something that passes a “reasonable doubt” test.
The former was regarding the Pyramids.
I am not missing the gist, let make it clear, i am open minded to evey theory, so VB and his pals saying the Dogons denied knowledge of sirius etc and it was all made up by Giaule, is not evidence, whos to say that VB and pals are not lying also, did they provide evidence apart from their words, as far as im concerned the Dogon could have told him, yes its all true.
Most of the world including yourself i assume believe Bin Laden was behind 911 and no evidence was produced not 1 bit, except bush on tv saying it was Mr Laden and his pals but theres plenty of evidence to prove that bush and his government were lying but because that evidence never gets mainstream media coverage its regarded as conspiracy and people keep on believing it was Bin laden. This point also applies to archaeology .
Theres footprints dating million of years if this is true then aliens have visited or Science is lying about our history ie homo sapiens being around for 200,000 thousand years.
If you like i can provide you with Evidence that kids are being brainwashed at school and uviversity about our history and not just history, at the end of the day i can prove we are being lied to and the truth is being hidden and if this is so, the validity of archaeology and everything else is also dubious.
Let’s make it simple. Give me ONE piece of data in favor of alien visitation to the Dogon — something that does not rely on hearsay — hearsay that is contradicted by other expert witnesses to the Dogon culture. Can you give me and the readers just that for starters?
I doubt it, since you are now defending the theory with unrelated and wacky conspiracy theory (again, THEORY, with no objective, testable data).
Mr Heiser, stop putting words into my posts, i never said i could provide concrete evidence about Temples theory,but i am not going to take VB and pals word for it, if they have evidence to back what they say please link to it so we can see it as far as im concerned Giaule or VB could be right but none have provided solid evidence, just as you have not provided solid evidence in this article. so i will remain open minded on this 1.
Regarding the pyramids which you believe were built by the Egyptians. Where is the concrete evidence the Egyptians built the pyramids, is there Egyptian texts stating that they built the pyramids and how they did it, if so please link to them other wise everything else is just beliefs.
Regarding footprints do you already know of them or would you like links as i said before they would prove science is lying or aliens have visited.
As for 911 going by your reply i assume you believe binLaden did it wich would make you a hypocrite because there is no evidence what so ever .
I can provide plenty of evidence to prove Bush and the Media were lying or are you afraid of being shown to be brainwashed, as for unrelated,1 thing links them all together, the truth is being hidden.
Bush and bin Laden have nothing to do with Sirius. If you can’t offer any comments of substance, I will of course still approve them, but you’ll look unhinged.
I have stated already what i believe concerning Sirius, since you have not provided solid evidence in this article, i will remain open on this 1.
Regarding the pyramids which is your field, please provide the concrete evidence.
The footprints if true, which is also your field, means aliens have visited or science is lying.
Your reluctance to address 1. the pyramids 2. the footprints, tells me this, there is no concrete evidence that the Egypians built the pyramids thus making you a hypocrite and the footprints wouçld mean you believe something that isnt true.
You are right 9-11 has nothing to do with Sirius, my reason for mentioning 9-11 was to prove you are a hypocrite because you stated that “I require concrete evidence of a theory before I believe it” so if you believe the Governments version which i think you do, this would make you a hypocrite since they have provided no evidence at all, let alone concrete. This is all relevant in proving whether you are a credible source or not.
I don’t care what you *believe* about Sirius. I’m asking you to post evidence. Belief and evidence are two different things.
I am not the one who wrote this article, so its not down to me to produce any evidence its down to you and thats my point you have only produced heresay and no concrete evidence,i have already stated i have no evidence and remain open minded on this 1, are you reading my comments_? or do have i to keep repeating myself.
You keep avoiding my questions because you know it will prove your a hypocrite and not just to me but to all your readers.You are only fooling yourself.
this is the third attempt to get you to post some evidence for your view on the Dogon. Having failed three times, you’re done.
Can you provide any proof? Egyptian hieroglyphs that say, yes we built the Pyramids. Also may I ask with all of your knowlage and research into ancient texts what are your personal beliefs about our origins? How do you personally explain the Giants being discovered and where do they and these enlongated skull people if not extraterrestrial fit into our history. Also in your veiw what exactly does the Sumerian tablets say of our origins, if anything at all.
I really do appreciate you debating all this with all of us, I’m not looking for God or ET’s I just want to know the truth of our origins, it just seems that as soon as we get close its explained by god or et therioes.
yes; had you read the engineering books on the bookshelf on this blog, you would know that drawings and other engineering sketches exist that show the technology that was used.
You really need to spend some serious time reading through this blog and my Sitchiniswrong.com site. All of these issues are addressed in detail. I’m not going to reproduce the material in the comments section.
good argument MSH, you’re all talk about evidence, and once someone engages you and asks for it you hastily retreat and counter-argue asking for evidence in return (after saying he has none, you’re gonna wait for it before you reply, good show). You have thus halted the argument with basic crap tactics.
I find your answers rude and for the most part condescending. You dont really seem to have a leg to stand on. I’m not saying i believe AAT but there’s definately something to be said about you when you make a website with a statement and then avoid providing proof in such a childish manner. Face it, its heresay vs heresay.
so, where is your evidence in rebuttal, or are you just annoyed?
And you spelled “hearsay” wrong.
back to the old evidence war huh. What would I be providing evidence for? I haven’t claimed anything, I’ve just said you lack evidence yourself. You can translate aramaic but can’t read plain english. Nice to note half of your response was aimed at correcting my spelling, and the other half was exactly as predicted in my previous reply.
It seems it is you who has spat out your pacifier.
So, it’s unreasonable to ask for evidence? Consider me enlightened by the thought.
how you came to that conclusion I will never know, but in response, it is unreasonable to ask ME for evidence, when I have made no claims. That is the second time, and second way, that I have phrased that for you. I wish you all the luck in your future, you need it.
You seem to think disputing a position (mine) leaves you “claim-less”; it doesn’t. You can’t pretend to be in favor of nothing, and your responses shows that you aren’t neutral. If you were opinion-less, you wouldn’t have commented.
If we were visited, they blew the opportunity. Surely we would be much more advanced by now. How quickly other cultures pick up from each other when something good is on offer. A spaceship landing would have made a more discernible impact on the human psyche… Just a thought.
I hope you don’t see my responses as a personal attack, as they are all true, I dont claim to be neutral, and I’m on a debunking website because i’m interested in both sides. I would have liked to read the evidence and responses others asked you for (regarding the Dogons), but all your answers were dead-ends. You could respond to to them now, but I assume you’ll avoid intelligent response with knee-jerk defensiveness.
what I want is a piece of evidence from you that this is ET-related. I can’t make it any simpler. If you can’t do this, I won’t bother approving any more of your comments. It’s a waste of time. You’ve had plenty of chances, and people can read the comments where I repeatedly ask you for this very simple item, and you repeatedly respond as if you never got the request.
Have you even read the replies? Are you literally blinded by your arrogance? I dont recall being -repeatedly- asked anything by you, and THAT is there for your readers to see.
You ask me for evidence of aliens visiting saying you wont respond to me otherwise, yet being a man of your age and having an academic background, you should already know no such evidence has ever been found, and that it would be a groundbreaking event you would know about if it had been found.
So a rough translation of your last pointless, childish, idiotic response would be : show me evidence of aliens or you are discredited and not worth talking to.
Arrogance does not do well to represent intelligence, and if you’ve got something to say, and want to be heard, then you better learn to say it right.
the only reason you wouldn’t approve this is because everyone else would.
Okay, Einstein, have YOU read what I asked for? Give me one piece of evidence for extraterrestrial life and visitation. That’s the starting point. Let’s have it. Then it’s on the table for Sirius.
Let me tell you, Einstein described idiocy as doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results, and I must be far from comparable to Einstein to keep responding to you and expecting a decent reply.
I have never claimed aliens came and helped ANY ancient civilizations (AS I HAVE ALREADY SAID), and personally I think you might be right with your version of events regarding the Dogon.
So, why are you asking me for evidence for it? (AS I HAVE ALREADY ASKED)
I merely point out the fact that you’re the type of guy that avoids answering questions with shill tactics and childishness (AS I HAVE ALREADY SAID). Someone asked you for evidence, which I would have liked to have seen (AS I HAVE ALREADY SAID) Now, you avoided giving that person a response, asking them for evidence in return, showing no inkling of respect to the way forum and debate usually take place. Then I pointed this out to you, and you started asking ME for evidence (AS I HAVE ALREADY SAID).
Continuing, I would like to further point out to you that no evidence of E.T. even exists (AS I HAVE ALREADY SAID), and you ask me for ET evidence again in the very next post in response … Are you really serious? Really? I don’t think you’re trying, you can’t be THIS stupid.
You’ve made so many assumptions about me and my intentions, but you’re just not smart enough to do that (as you have been wrong in all your assumptions), you’re logic is FUBAR. I have tried to simplifiy it a little for you for you to understand by pointing out the reasons and causes of my actions and responses. This will allow you to think about your responses without having to scroll up and read my previous responses (as this challenge seems too much for you).
So, want to try to belittle me more? Maybe try, and fail (again), to put words in my mouth? Well that won’t work on me, I’m above such games. Are you ready to admit you’re nothing but another jumped up little academic thinking he’s got the world figured out?
SO, just to clarify, I don’t have to provide you with evidence of something that hasn’t been proven (lets face it, it would be childish if I did have to, as I hope you have learned from our previous encounters). So, in your response I hope you refrain from asking such nonsense of me again, all it does is serve to derail your comments section and cease intelligent conversation.
It won’t be long till you stop approving my messages, you’re looking worse after every one, but its too late, everyone already knows you’re scared when challenged by the abrasive and immature way you respond. Quite lucky you have a means of censoring me really, but it doesn’t matter, the truth doesn’t need your approval.
I eagerly, but not hopefully, await your response.
Regards,
Luke
Yes, if you want to deny the pyramids and other megaliths were not made by ancient humans, you DO need to offer evidence for that. Sorry, but you can’t make up rules that allow you to escape responsibility for demonstrating your ideas are coherent. That’s called avoiding accountability. What you write here will live on the blog to demonstrate your failure to do this. If you want to talk about alien intervention, that only avoids the charge of nonsense by YOU proving aliens are real. It’s a fair, reasonable request that would be deemed as such by all sane people who care about what they say corresponding to reality. It’s not belittling you. It’s asking a reasonable question. I’ll let readers judge if the question is unreasonable.
And trust me, it doesn’t harm me at all to approve your comments.
If you aren’t denying that humans made these things, or are asserting that Sirius has nothing to do with aliens, say so clearly, and then tell us exactly where you disagree with the human view. As you note, I may have misunderstood your comments.
With clarity as and end in mind, let’s make a very succinct answer on your part possible. Here are the the declarative sentences to affirm in agreement or deny in disagreement:
1. The Dogon were not visited by extraterrestrials: affirm it or deny it?
2. Dogon astronomy has nothing to do with extraterrestrials: affirm it or deny it?
3. Extraterrestrials did not assist in building the pyramids and other megalithic architecture from antiquity: affirm it or deny it?
I affirm all the above. Tell us where you’re at.
A well reasoned and logical response showing integrity I thought beyond you, and thanks for finally asking my position.
1. The Dogon were not visited by extraterrestrials: affirm it or deny it?
AGREED
2. Dogon astronomy has nothing to do with extraterrestrials: affirm it or deny it?
AGREED
3. Extraterrestrials did not assist in building the pyramids and other megalithic architecture from antiquity: affirm it or deny it?
AGREED
However, I do believe (and I’m not so sure you’ll agree with me here) that there have been advanced/modern humans on Earth for longer than percieved by mainstream science. I’m not talking about Atlantis or anything like that. I’m not talking millions of years ago. I’m not referring to anything bible related. I’m not talking about anything beyond the realms of what we have today, and I certainly believe knowledge has been lost, though nothing ridiculous like anti-gravity or any of the other fringe ideas thrown out there, just simple inginuity that we in our advanced and ignorant era would easily overlook. I mean, they survived an ice age, right?
There are couple of things I don’t agree with in the mainstream, or that arent satisfactorily answered in my opinion. I would like it very much if you could give your opinion on these, though you are not obliged. A short list of those would be:
1. Estimated time of construction for the Pyramids.
Not much more to say here but if current theories are correct they must have had one hell of an army building these (I CANNOT overstate how fast they would have had to have worked).
2. Pyramids all over the world.
The chances of many countries in the same time span constructing similar pyramids are very, very slim without some form of global communication (don’t assume I believe the last part). Have you any ideas how this global design may have been globalized?
3. Age of the Giza pyramids.
Water damage indicates a much older age for the pyramids. The sahara desert has been one of the most arid places on Earth since it dried up several thousands of years ago. This makes me think they must have been built when the Sahara was more of a savannah. There are several other thing I don’t have time to go in to regarding the pyramids age (direction of leo/sphinx during spring equinox around 10,500BC et cetera, can elabourate at a later date if required). Are you firmly in line with the mainstream age of the pyramids, or are you, like me, open to the possibility that they might pre-date all previously preconcieved notions?
4. Trilithon stone at Baalbek, Lebanon
I don’t really feel this needs much elabouration. I would like to hear any mainstream opinion of how a block over 1000 metric tons was quarried and moved in prehistoric times. Not saying it’s impossible, just gathering opinions and ideas as I personally am not intelligent enough to think of a way this could be done. All kinds of problems here with such a shear weight, and evenly distributing the weight to avoid over stressing.
As I say, I’m looking for your opinions so there is no wrong answer, and I apologize in advance if I wasn’t clear about anything as I’m a little busy.
Regards,
Luke
now you’re done, for the insulting tone. And busy doesn’t even begin to describe my own life.
I began exploring your website because my husband is very enamored with any “outside the box” explanation of anthropological / archeological / sociological / religious “stuff.” I’m a skeptic regarding such claims but willing to look (marital harmony, mutual respect, love…). My strategy (time limitations being a factor) is to examine sites positing claims and those with counter claims. I was very impressed by the organizational structure & documentation provided one this site; however, I was puzzled by the responses to “Luke” above, particularly the last one which seemed very resonable and respectful. Since you have provided several links to assist in searches for reputable information (for the benefit of those of us who are not “academics”), I don’t understand why you seemed so offended by his post. I would appreciate seeing the links myself (may be posted elsewhere on the site but a link from here would be helpful). I would really like to share the website info. with my husband, but do feel that the heat of your responses (such as to “Luke”) may give him an argument for bias on your part. Would you reconsider, and give a more dispassionate response?
You have to reproduce specifically what it is you’d like me to answer. I have roughly a half hour a day for my blogs (that’s a real number, as I’m one of these people whose life circumstances [actually, over-commitments] force me to be able to account for every half hour of every day. Consequently, when I asked Luke to produce evidence for an alien view, I never got a clear “that isn’t what I think” until the last comment of length. I then wanted to be sure, so I gave him the affirmations and denials (yes or no options). He was clear there, but not before being an ass. The bottom line is I have neither the time nor the disposition to put up with that. I’m barely able to keep my blogs going with my schedule, so I can’t let people monopolize a discussion. I need direct and to-the-point responses. And when people want to be uppity, it’s my blog, and I;m not required by any law or principle to give them air time. If he doesn’t like it, he can start his own blog. Just trying to be honest with you. If I had all day, I could dissect long comments and parse every item, lingering over the prose and interacting with everything. It just isn’t going to happen.
And incidentally, I would respond to something clear and concise, and we could go on from there.
And for the record, if you don’t realize that pretty much all I do on the web is not for my fellow scholars (the guild) but *is* for non-specialists, than you need to explore the blogs and sites more. I regularly struggle with whether I ought to be more like my guild friends, who either think blogging is a waste of their time, or if they do blog, do so for their own peers. There are a few exceptions, but that’s how academics are. I know from experience that their time is limited, but I think many could and ought to do more for the non-specialist.
I think it is Sitchin who tried to make suckin jews in power. lol.
It’s a Great Deception of all time, misleading truthseekers all around the world. That our origins are “aliens” (previously “demon”), and we are slaves (how enlighting), and “The Master Anunnaki” is coming. lmao.
I’m not a Christian, but it sounds Antichrist’s deception to me. In line with Reagan’s speech at the UN (actually he said it 6x in different events), that “common threat from outer space would unite the world as one”. The question is, who’ll be in charge? Isn’t it “the suckin jews in power”? lmao.
Anyway, as an openminded guy, I am willing to accept Sitchin’s claims re 12 planets, ancient astronauts, etc etc. The story is very exotic, I love that.. But it stays to be a pure fiction, for it’s not what the Sumerians said in the tablet. Reality bites! 😀
I understood why MSH is very persistant in this subject. No matter how heartbreaking, Sitchin’s claims are simply not right (except proven otherwise, which I openmindedly expected, but never happened for a decade).
Thank you, MSH. Keep up the good work. GBU..
thanks
For the religious out their that are Jew haters, remember, Jesus was a Jew.
Also remember, it was the Romans (the predecessors of today’s Catholic Church) that scourged and crucified Jesus not the Jews.
Joh 19:23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also his coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout.
As for Sitchins claims, maybe you need to read the Bible. As to whether the Bible is referring to the Annanaki or not is another question.
Read:
2 Samuel 22 (Psalms 18).
2Sam 22:11 And he came riding upon a cherub and came flying;
And he was visible upon the wings of a spirit…………..
15 And he kept sending out arrows, that he might scatter them;
Lightning, that he might throw them into confusion.
16 And the streambeds of the sea became visible,
The foundations of the productive land became uncovered
Read in Ezekiel about the Cherubs.
Ezekiel 3:12 And a spirit proceeded to bear me along and I began to hear behind me the sound of a great rushing: “Blessed be the glory of Jehovah from his place.” 13 And there was the sound of the wings of the living creatures that were closely touching each other, and the sound of the wheels close beside them, and the sound of a great rushing. 14 And [the] spirit bore me along and proceeded to take me, so that I went bitterly in the rage of my spirit, and the hand of Jehovah upon me was strong. 15 So I entered in among the exiled people at Tel-a?bib, who were dwelling by the river Che?bar, and I began to dwell where they were dwelling; and I kept dwelling there for seven days, stunned in the midst of them.
What did the Israelites follow through the desert for forty years.
A Pillar of Cloud (Cylindrical shaped object).
A real water vapour cloud, Yeah! sure mate.
Exodus 13:21-22. Exodus 14:24. Numbers 14:14. Deuteronomy 1:33. Nehemiah 9:12. Nehemiah 9:19.
2 Kings 2:11 And it came about that as they were walking along, speaking as they walked, why, look! a fiery war chariot and fiery horses, and they proceeded to make a separation between them both; and E•li?jah went ascending in the windstorm to the heavens.
(Elijah does not die at this time, nor does he go into the invisible spirit realm, but he is transferred to another prophetic assignment. This is shown by the fact that Elisha does not hold any period of mourning for his master. A number of years after his ascension in the windstorm Elijah is still alive and active as a prophet, this time to the king of Judah. Because of the wicked course taken by King Jehoram of Judah, Elijah writes him a letter expressing Jehovah’s condemnation, which is fulfilled shortly thereafter.—2Ch 21:12-15)
Psalms 68:17 The war chariots of God are in tens of thousands, thousands over and over again.
Jehovah himself has come from Si?nai into the holy place.
Sorry, but these scriptures do not refer to a literal cloud. Dreamland material.
Daniel 7:13 “I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One
Acts 1:9 And after he had said these things, while they were looking on, he was lifted up and a cloud caught him up from their vision.
Luke 21:27 And then they will see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
There are many references in the Bible to Flying craft.
One8one
“When Captain James Cook showed my people the map of New Zealand they told him it was wrong. My people navigated all over.”
Cook was an excellent map maker, attested to worldwide. He probably only sailed around New Zealand once with very few mistakes.
There is no proof in the Bible for “flying CRAFT” – you have to read that into the chariot metaphors and words like “clouds.” It’s called “over-literalizing” (and then ignoring the pre-scientific comments found elsewhere in the Bible).
I was replying to a post up there which said MSH “make suckin jews in power”. 🙂
I don’t hate Jews. The tribe of “righteous people” like Moses, David, Solomon, Jesus, to name a few. Actually some people can’t tell the difference between “jews” and “zionist”. Not all jews are zionist, and not all zionists are jews. But that’s not the context of this thread, I’m just replying a post using the same word (“jews”).
I’m sorry to follow up on the Egyptian pyramid topic, but I’m a curious man.
What do you make of the gridlines and the people who make claims that our ancestors (often aliens, lol) got together to build many, many giant temples across the world (and often refer to energy) with such precision? I think it’s a crock to further the agendas, whatever they may be, several in fact, but that’s my opinion, it’s not my field of study. This is pure interest from a more educated scholar on such topics than myself. We all have our own specialties.
Also, perhaps a mundane question, I’m trying to show people the astronomyphysics conflicts of Nibiru (as a destroyer) to scared people. I feel as psychologist and critical thinker it’s my duty to try to lead people away from the man made hoax.
What is the best way to show uneducated and vulnerable people facts? (I may have answered my own question, perturbations blows it all out of the water, but people are stearing away from science and into this ‘New Age’ propaganda, I refer to the human belief sytem)
Many cults! People often link all alien frauds together… I’m sure you’ve seen it. Billy Meiers, David Icke, the Annunaki… I’m having trouble mostly with David Icke’s reptilian shapeshifting, I know of the human conscious limitations, but it’s so hard to teach people. Please help me and others like me to find CLEAR discrepencies that can’t be refuted. I can’t watch his conferences without laughing like a child, and can’t make it past 5 to 10 minutes. I know, I’m terrible, but it’s so ridiculous! I have RH- blood type, and people are attacking that as well, lol.
People seeking answers to the unknown in the wrong places… A common theme throughout history. Perhaps I am wrong.
gridlines are achievable by simple math (and the will to do all the work to lay them out). It’s basic 360 degree math, and that we know existed in antiquity (even though they didn’t know the earth was a globe, there is good evidence that they considered it round and flat, surrounded by water).
I’ve heard all the Anunnaki / reptilian nonsense. For what I think with the data you ask for, you need to spend the time going through my sitchiniswrong.com site and the ancient astronauts topic archive here on this blog. There’s a lot of stuff already online.
I apologize, I did not read what Luke said, please don’t take my questions too seriously. I admire your work, and only wish to disambuaute. Many people are so scared, all over Youtube and in forums/blogs, so many people, my empathy is very high. I have 2 sons and can’t live with the fact that parents are asking the wrong people (hoaxers and eneducated people with their own agendas) about how to deal with Nibiru as a Destroyer. I know it’s garbage.
As for the pyramids, I only wanted simple input from what you know about the GRIDS,and the crazy math involved. I see no answers in sight. Feel free to only answer questions that you feel are good questions. I will not be offended, and please don’t be offended. I didn’t realize that other guy had pushed your buttons, I made a mistake in not reading all of the posts, I admit that, my timing was clearly bad.
I wanted to sum up my questions without unnecesary controversy. I’m not a controversial man. The name I chose says it all.
Thanks for your dedication:)
no problem
Mr. Heiser,
I have enjoyed looking at your site. I am however new to your blog and your other site and do understand your limited time available to answer questions. I would like to know if you debunk or investigate other theories or just ones relating to ET’s, bible related positions? I also believe in the bible and find it refreshing to find christian scholars willing to answer or provide evidence to debunk some of these theories which do not have a sound basis. Do you have in this blog or your other site your opinions or research on what the previous blogger asked about 1. The Pyramids, 2. The String Theory-(Jim Gates) 3. The Book- The Earths Hidden Secrets, that I have found many non-christians throw up and expect an explanation to, this is how I actually came across your site when I started researching to see if any of what is in that book is true and have found so far some of it to be based on fraudlent claims like the Ica Stones. Here is the link to this book: http://www.scribd.com/doc/8957766/Earths-Forbidden-Secrets-Part-One. What are you thoughts on Operation Bluebeam and HAARP? I have researched Dr. Nick Begich’s work and find it seems credible what is your opinion? I think it is very interesting that Bill Cooper was killed after he basically said he was intentionally mislead about the UFO’s by the govt. and other persons of interest. What is your opinion on him, Art Bell and Coast to Coast, do you only believe the agenda is for entertainment and nothing more? Thank you in advance for your consideration and response. Susan
pyramids, megaliths, and various material involving ancient astronauts are all accessible via the topic archives on the front page of the blog.
Bluebeam is of interest, as is HAARP. The latter was part of a plotline in my novel, The Facade. The former will get some play in a sequel.
I think the alien-UFO idea has little evidence in its favor, and am inclined to think it was useful during the Cold War as part of what one UFO govt document called psychological warfare (the memo suggested the UFO idea could be useful for that). Several important “alien” abduction researchers I know (most recently Leah Haley) opt for a military / psychological / propaganda explanation, and I think there is good circumstantial evidence for that angle (for a large portion of such reports). I don’t really do UFO stuff on this blog, though, unless it’s ancient alien nonsense. For the UFO stuff, see my UFO Religions blog. I do biblical studies and biblical theology at the Naked Bible blog.
Sorry meant to say Project Bluebeam in the above comment. Thanks.
Thanks for replying, I didn’t realize your site had so much about other topics, I will look here more often.
My attempts to prove Nancy Lieder and Sitchin wrong about Nibiru as a celestial doomsday event lead me here for more detailed information. BIG bonus, and I’ve made sure to corroborate anything I claim with other sources and my own common sense and critical thinking… I’ve seen no incongruities on your site beyond unreliable/unknown third parties and speculation on biased websites. I didn’t need memes to notice Nancy was full of it or delusional. She needs a new plasma battery in her imaginary implant!
I’ve given the History Channel a new name: Bad Science Speculation channel. Nothing like some “what ifs” and “maybes” about baloney to put ideas in people’s heads! Our brains eat it up, so curious we are. Some people start to build belief structures with it. This New Age stuff is getting old age. I don’t like Pseudoscience either, I absolutely hate it!
I’m not a religious man, I can’t even find a title beyond Agnostic for myself. Okay, so maybe I’m an Altruist; I believe in positivity, and avoid negativity if possible. People try to label me, it’s quite the scenario! Buddhist, Athiest, Anti-Theist, etc. People need to truly delve into defintions more thoroughly before attempting futile argument or just plain attempts at intellectual bashing. That being said, I know you are Christian, and I won’t ask stupid questions about your beliefs or denomination, and I won’t be a ‘bad comment apologizer’ (an inside joke my friend and I use refering to uneducated comments/assertions and assumptions about somebody’s belief(s). I’ve seen a few directed at you in here. I hope you get the pun… LOL).
I don’t intend to waste your time with puns and comedy, I do hope it made you smile, you must get sick of nonsense! I often do, staying rational is important with idiotic statements and claims surrounding us. I’m sure I’m preaching to the choir.
I came to ask what your input is of Lloyd Pie and his ‘star child’ head. I’m sure you can point me in the right direction and save me a few days or weeks, I’m also busy; I think it’s fraudulent. I’m making assumptions about him, but at least they’re educated assumptions. He worked off of Sitchin’s work back in the late 90’s (‘Everything we know is wrong’). I’m no archaeologist, I forget how to spell it often, I don’t use spellcheck. I’m having trouble with biased websites and unreliable sources. I’m hoping you have came across this topic and can point me to the right source(s), thank you kindly. It means a lot to me, I’m not a believer of aliens on Earth, obviously. I don’t point at lights (example) and make instictive conclusions. I’m a skeptic, as my example points out obvious man made technology, aliens don’t travel light years to graffiti a crop field! GEEZ!
I have an open mind, but I know how our perception and intuition fools us.
Psychology is a good tool.
Sincerely,
Anonymous Bad Science Apologizer (LOL)
I truly hope you get that joke:)
Have a good day Mike. Thanks for everything!
I hear you; I call the History Channel the Fantasy Channel.
On Lloyd Pye, I don’t believe he has something alien. You’d need a fuller DNA analysis (which he admits). I’ve had one geneticist look at the DNA reports he has on his site and, to say the least, he isn’t impressed. I won’t say more as I’m saving that exchange for when Pye announces something else, or when something is allegedly “proven” when it isn’t.
I 100% support your ideas. I will look into your book, and probably read it asap.
I keep posting before reading other comments; that was right on the money! I see it still happening today, but the internet has made it viral… It doesn’t take years of psychology and human brain studies to see it.
I do wonder about David Icke’s role, as I’ve pointed him out, but I continue to find stuff. He can’t vibrate through everything…
We will never see infrared or microwaves with naked eyes; we have evolved to survive on this ‘middle’ plain, we can’t see on the quantum level! That’s ludicrous. That alone should make people question his integrity.
He suggests he evolved overnight and the word vibrations is his common tool. He is not as wise as he claims, nor as clever as he sounds, yet he says those who defy him are quote: “clever without wisdom”. An obvious deflection/dodge.
People leap over a couple basic facts: he called his wife a shapeshifting reptile, and he claimed to be Jesus. “He overcame his adversities” and, “It was a metaphor” are typical naive or uneducated statements people use to maintain their construct. Quite the hole a lot of people are falling in. Following people with such obvious delusions and visions of grandeur is detrimental.
Him using ‘ancient ancestor(s)’ is like Sitchin and Robert Morningsky…
Here is a good site for you Sitchin believers and ESP believers:
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=130.0
Facts are better than theories and brain psych outs. I doubt many of you will even look, your choices are influenced, and you don’t even realize it. I dare you to step outside the box.
I just got goosebumps! (an instinctive response) It was just a fly! Intuition is intinctive, not conscious reasoning. Our brains are far from perfect, although we think we are better. Ego…
Baby steps…
I have just found your website and want to thank you for the excellent presentation of facts about matters people are so deluded about. I have read through several of the “conversations” you have had with people who don’t understand that just because an “expert” says something does not mean it is true. Evidence is not believe or faith nor is the fact someone has written a book evidence.
I can remember reading van Daniken’s first book as a young person and buying into his nonsense about ancient people did not have x-ray machines so how could they have known about the human skeleton until another book pointed out human bodies decay and skeletons become obvious.
Again thank you for bringing commonsense to these arguments and ideas.
Part of the reason I’m into these things is that I have a similar history. I was really absorbed as a kid by a lot of the stuff I poke fun at now. As I maintained my interest and read more deeply into lots of these things, I came to see how careless and feckless the “research” promoting them really was. But it’s still fun.
I am having a lot of problems with the Kolbrin Bible. I need to have better sources… Here’s ONE reason why:
Comments on my Nibiru debunked video from 1 individual:
“1/2 There are lots of lies on your video,[ and that does not mean i am a believer or non believer of planet x, nibiru i am a researcher on the subject.] the planet x story did not start with NANCY LEIDER. There are several references to an “ancient” book called the Kolbrin Bible. It’s supposedly composed of about 12 manuscripts and was written starting around 1500BC by Egyptian scholars and finished sometime during the 12 -14th centuries by the Keltic monks. If, and I stress if the [ con`t ]”
“2/2 time line were valid then the information contained in it is at least fascinating and at most one of the most important books ever written. The earliest historical reference that I can find appears in the late 19th century when it was “rescued” from a monastery fire somewhere in Briton. Is anyone familiar with the book and is there any credible evidence of its authenticity? It all started by the Gvernment and NASA the same people who FUNDS NANCY LIEDER the scapegoat to debunk NIBIRU.”
Part of what somebody said about my youtube video… I didn’t lie… I have links to the 1983 Washington Post showing it’s flaws and premature release, I also have lots of other links that show Sitchin’s errors. I open it up with Nancy Lieder for obvious reasons. Her lack of credibility should be obvious. I continue to explain how it came about, Sitchin’s involvement, everything factual.
I come to you for directions, please help. I need concrete proof of Marshall Masters’ BS beyond his obvious use of pseudoscience, and/or a few links that may help me put that Kolbrin Bible crap to rest. *(main point)*
I’m a psychology guy, this is NOT my specialty, but I know there is no “Dark object” as he claimed earlier before I asked him for facts beyond speculation, I told him “there are no perturbations, and to provide corroborated facts including mass, orbit, density, and location from credible sources.” (not verbatim, it was much more professional) He didn’t, that was his reply. He also claims NASA is hiding facts, etc. etc. (extreme conspiracy theorist, they call me a shill regularly…)
Regardless of his obvious nonsensical retorts, it would be VERY helpful. I’m serious, I have looked very hard for concrete evidence to make it easy for the uneducated masses to see the fallacies easily.
I need better replies. I’m not making money off of my videos, I’m trying to help people not be scared! I’m not a religious man, but I have empathy, I’m an altruist if anything.
I did reply about Masters, I also said it’s all been debunked, pseudoscience, etc… but I didn’t feel at all confident much past that and discrediting him for not doing what my question asked.
Thanks again Mike. I really need a pointer:)
PS I’d leave you a link to my channel, but not in public, and you don’t have time as you stated. It promotes psychology and critical thinking. If you want it, you may be surprised at my research on some things, I can email it to you. I also show people how to read the Sumerian texts via the Assyrian dictionary (your video) and left a LOT of information to make it easy, and links to credible sources about other astrotheological bad science, also included links to use the ETCSL. I had to ambiguaute (is that a word, lol) the title to get views, people don’t want facts… They want fiction.
sure – send me a link in email.
I found it wasn’t that hard to find the fallacies of the Kolbrin (bible), plus have found more evidence of fraud. I don’t know if you recieved my email with my channel link. I know this isn’t exactly the right thread, but I do expose the Dogon crap…
Here is my video ( YOUR video, but I have made several links in other topics exosing bad science and pseudoscience). The information under the video is important, and I plan on making a much longer and in depth video when can get more concrete facts.
I’m not a speculator, I start with what I can prove/disprove. There is a real science to truthseeking most people don’t understand. I’m sure you know exactly what I speak of.
It seems people are scared to like it… I forgot to turn on likes/dislikes, I made a mistake. 2 likes,0 dislikes, about 800(?) views… Hmmm… 🙂
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faTeQ4XeWmg
Give me your input please:) also, I was wondering why I couldn’t get any hits on the ETSCL…. Thanks for the new page update.
Big fan, Tomas.
I have read some of your commits. Though you seam like you speak the truth. I can tell that you don’t think there is an ET race out there that’s your opinion. I am in a knowing that they exist. your a man of science I don’t trust the system when it comes to history or medical people cause we all know their the warlords of old. I will continue to read your commits. I can tell you that Sitchin wouldn’t write you back if I was him I wouldn’t write you back either because you would criticize everything hes speaking of. There is something Mother Teresa said and it makes sense. I would never support an anti war movement if you had a peace movement then I would come. It just sounds like you have a lot of Hate and using science and your degree to justify what you belief is the truth. What comes from within is your truth but to say another is wrong is being Judgmental. We should allow people to view the truth as they see it. In Sitchin’s case you should forgive not hate like your web site says hate over and over. I have no Education But I exist so there for I’m as smart as the man that has a PH D.
Love and Light,
Eric
if you have proof of ET why haven’t you given it to science for review? (or the world, or the mass media, or something?)
@Eric
I believe in the obvious possibility of aliens in the universe somewhere, but searching for any real truth to aliens on Earth or in any texts has been inconclusive. There is simply no REAL data that I have found, and trust me, I have looked everywhere I could so far, and still am looking into some claims, but they keep being baseless, inconclusive, and/or fabrications/conjecture. As a child I wondered the possibilities of aliens as Gods… No real corrobated proof.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence– Carl Sagan.
If you understood how science is done, you would understand that there are right ways to find truth and wrong ways. There are over 500 different types of science. I don’t like philosophy of science (Google it), as people use science advancements to degrade the best tool we have right now as a human race to find truth in everything. You demonstrated poor linguistics, that is a form of science… No offense, I was making a reference to the importance of good science…
Very typical for people to make assumptions based on a few comments. I don’t like pseudoscience, simple definitions elude people. My mind is open, is just isn’t on the floor. I don’t conform by the consesus or majority, I’m apprehensive in my beliefs and stay objective. Not to be assumed as narrowminded… That would be a brain error.
You can always self educate yourself, but never presume to know more than others simply because you are human. That can be easily taken the wrong way. It’s actually attacking people and their life studies, you may not realize it, or are you just another troll? You say you’re not educated, but you claim to know as much as a PHD? That’s arrogance. Again, no offense! It’s 100% fact and can be corroborated by experts.
There is always more to learn.
As for the end of your comment, very revealing where your studies are. It’s okay to be religious! Just don’t use it as a moral highground or any type of highground. That’s counterproductive, and as a psychology guy, I see right through it. It doesn’t take Columbo! (pun)
BTW Mike, I changed my channel on Youtube, and found what I was looking for. It’s pretty sad I don’t have a religious label beyond a skeptic, possibly Agnostic (Atheism makes absolutely no sense to me, no proof, no God? Dismiss/reject all possibilities? That’s not how science is done…) and I’m not exactly a humanitarian, but I still spread truth about the doomsday hoaxes (Planet X/Nibiru mainly). The lack of empathy and the disregard of possible undesirable repricussions of other human beings’ lives is very disturbing.
@Eric
I forgot to add: you LIED, I never had nor have ‘hate’ in my Youtube channel. I prove doomsdayers wrong. It’s really easy, there just aren’t any real facts to any of it; they are out to make money and have no cares for the consequences. How do you contribute beyond opinions?
Please, continue to read our comments. It seems you need good mentors.
I hope you and Eric can remain civil.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O79Vkz8a5Y8
Could I possibly make it easier?
Here’s my new channel, this is a tutorial video (you narrated the video) of how to read the texts 2 ways, and shows the obvious Dogon/Sirius discrepencies in the info (and the Kobrin false claims and a few other things)
Sorry for the spam. I hope you enjoy seeing others research and spread facts and truth, I have much more, too much to fit in the information box to corroborate if I make a long video with all my findings thus far.
I’ll always be civil. It’s professional courtesy to maintain integrity of your blog; sometimes things need to be made clear, as much as I get tired of explaining simple things.
Have a good day,
Tomas
The reality is Dr Heiser, your theories and those of the Ancient Alien believers fall into the same category…opinion not fact
You are an admitted skeptic, so you begin from a place of bias, and no matter how much you deny it, that bias removes your credibility. Your view is none of the evidence can point to Ancient Aliens because there are no such things as Ancient Aliens…that is Pseudoskepticism.
You are also Jewish, and as a Jew, your faith guides you to many of your “conclusions”. You are in a position where you are forming your own opinions to fit your specific lifestyle of skeptic/Jew
If you can come online and claim you and that idiot Chris Smith have solved all the riddles in history, you are an insane skeptic/Jew
Chris claimed in his “Movie”, that building many of the structures and monuments were, “easily done with simple tools”. You both lost all credibility there when you try to “debunk” things not do so logically.
Building structures and monuments so large and so precise before the invention of the wheel, and you both have the nerve to make claims as to know what these people were doing, is beyond arrogant
Truth is, you and the Ancient Alien Believers are both WRONG in your “assumptions”. You both twist all the supporting evidence to fit your arguments, yet you both do not know anything for sure
I respect what the Mayans did with their Calendar that is more accurate than any Calendar since. They studied the stars and found astronomical events that occur every 25,800 years, they detected the Earth’s wobble 1000’s of years before modern US astronomers in the late 1800’s. The Aztecs who followed carried on similar traditions all studying the universe with the NAKED EYE ONLY!
If it were found that in the vastness of space and time life forms from other worlds made contact with the Mayans, it would seem reasonable considering how old the universe is and how much further advanced older civilazations would be…just imagine what we know now as humans, opposed to what we will know in 10,000 years from now. Things you deem as impossible now as a skeptic, will become reality for your Jewish/skeptic great, great, great, great, grandchildren
Dont be so cocky and make claims as fact when they are only theories. You will sound like an Ancient Alien Believer…just not as fun
CDC
it’s not opinion to say that Zecharia Sitchin’s main ideas are not present in the cuneiform texts — and then show you how to search those same texts for yourself online. It’s fact. If I was wrong, then Sitchin or someone else would have come forward when publicly asked to do so in 2001 on the Art Bell show. The crickets have chirped ever since. Sorry, but things either exist or they don’t. Same for evidence of alien visitation. That idea can only be put on the table when we know aliens in fact do exist; until then, it’s a classic illustration of circular reasoning (and illogic is also not opinion-based — an idea is either non-contradictory and coherent or it isn’t).
@CDC
That entire comment was a demonstration of biased belief. All speculation, assumptions, and an obvious bias toward Jews and skeptics. The pot calling the kettle black…?
I’m a man of science. I have no religion. I’m not Atheist either, I find the whole religion/creator thing to be not even worth talking about. Don’t make more assumptions, I’ve studied theology and read several ancient texts. (objectively)
I don’t say there isn’t a possibilty of aliens on other planets, but I will say you MUST have lept over all of the references to fit your belief system; that was not a data driven argument, just an ad hominem ridden post full of comfirmation biases. Apophenia? I don’t assume. Whatever fits the belief, huh?
@If you don’t know what peer review, citations, references, footnotes, or corroboration is, please look them up. I won’t make assumptions about your education, anybody who went to college learns these things very quickly… I found no errors in that video. Exposing the pseudoscience was good, it’s a threat to the integrity of good science.
“Things you deem as impossible now as a skeptic, will become reality for your Jewish/skeptic great, great, great, great, grandchildren”
I had no idea psychics existed. Please look up James Randi and claim the million dollar prize, it’s been too many years, no winners.
You demonstrate possible metacognitive overconfidence and possible super ego. I’m not insulting you, if you look up some defintions of words I’ve said (including paragraphs above of course), you might step back and take a proverbial look in the mirror. That’s the best way… Don’t judge. Simple. (look at your own possible mistakes, it’s healthy)
Main point: where are the facts to back your assertions? I’d love some peer reviewed content stating anything on that TV series was more than just pseudo, suggestive questions (“What if we only had some proof?” VERBATIM), and speculation. Citations to credible sources? I would love to see some scientific papers. Seriously! I WOULD. I love that stuff.
First of all, Hello. I have been looking around in this website for a few hours now. I have been interested in this Ancient Alien stuff for some time now. I am not familiar with History Channel’s productions, but have you heard of David Wilcock’s book “The Hidden Science of Lost Civilisations”? Have you heard of the large increasing amount of psychologists that suggest deep hypnosis on their patients, hearing stories about past life stories and stories of the pyramids and even older stories? These last two sentences I wrote just to kind of let you in on the HUGE amount of scientists and other experts in various areas that have knowledge and experience of so called “paranormal things”. You seem to have now idea whatsoever of the pineal gland or its properties, or the possible properties of electromagnetics. (If one can travel out of body, why not the Sirious starsystems?)
If you are familiar with Carl Sagan, you should also be aware of the massive amounts of radiation, waves and particles our planet receives from space. Have you considered the possibility that maybe our planet receives different types of energy at different cycles?
The logical mind always need something logical to show anything, hince evidence is needed. I suspect that your brain is mostly left brained activated. Wether it is or not, how it behaves is not the reason for why you are like you are, but it behaves like it does because you are who you are, its mirroring or expressing it, in a way that there is possibility to measure the acitivity or your energy in a 3d reality.
Perhaps you disregard me as a new age hippie, or something like it. I have been left brained for most of my life, and I would say most people are. But understand that there are always endless ways of looking at anything, and none of them are wrong, this reality works in a way that we ourselves create it. Feeling and emotion is a the key to master your own reality. Perhaps you will find this out soon.
So far as your debunking is concerned, it´s not really debunking. You are attacking a few, weak theories. There are much stronger thoeries and there is a bigger picture. Work WITH them instead of against them.
I have no PhD either. Thank lord for that, I wouldn’t want my mind to be even more manipulated by the institutions of this world.
Basically you are saying that, we evolved our reptilian brain, to then be able to evolve our mammal brain, in which together with the reptilian brain we could evolve our very advanced third layer brain, just so we can forget all about or evolution and stick to the lower two brains?
Im sorry but I have to say this, You are helplessly stuck in a belief that what you are aware of is all that you are aware of. If you would just let go of your ego and perhaps use various types of methods to syncronize your brain hemispheres you would see that your subconsious is always there, in firsthand. what you say and do in your waking state, is always a result of your subconsious.
However, have you heard of the nucleas physicist Thomas Campbell? He works for NASA and has written a book, My Big TOE (My big picture theory of everything), there is an online free edition of this book (about 850 pages).
I also recommend his Reality 101 workshop video series on Youtube. ESPECIALLY for left brained debunkers like you, who appreciate western type of logical mind thinking.
Other authors that I think would blow your mind all way to the sirious star systems of you would just give them the chance:
Robert Monroe
Raymond Moody
Brian L Weiss
I’m not familiar with Wilcock or the other names, except for Raymond Moody, who would have nothing to contribute with respect to the material on this blog (if it’s the same Raymond Moody who does NDE research).
I would also like to point out, that knowing is NOT intellectual copying, which most of school and educations consists of. Know yourself, remember who you are, stabilize your vibrations, receive the information and update your DNA. Either that or don´t do any of it. Go find guys like David Icke and laugh at his experiences. Pat you ego, maybe you will get a boner (sorry, but I find these types of comments funny, though realistic)
As said, Carl Sagan talked about particles penetrating our bodies from space. particles is information, right? What if, in the right frequency range you can really feel these different types of data?
Do you actually really believe that all, ALL the growing people around the world, talking about vibrations and such, do it just to try to shut you up or you know because they have flaws in their theories?. After having an Out of body experience, I can tell you that even this reality is not as real as the vibrations. Lol
You share Carl Sagans opinion of the needed proof of extra terrestrials, but you are not near as open minded as he was.
Also, if you really need proof of ET´s, I don’t think it will ever get closer than this today: search for the documentary The Silent Revolution of Truth
It features Billy Meier, I ASSUME you have heard of this guy and his picture-, video- and sound-recordings?
I fail to see how Sagan’s comments about particles has anything to do with the Temple’s failure to produce real evidence about Dogon “advanced knowledge.” Billy Meier is a fraud (his wife isn’t the only one who says he faked pictures, either).
@ HigherLearning
“people don’t want facts… They want fiction.”
of course, the intellect can never bring anything new to this world. Only by bringing the so called abstract to become to reality can we feel true pleasure
Beware of possible cognitive dissonace when nothing comes to fruition with Billy Meiers… (Anybody can recreate those photos; I know a lot about cameras, don’t try the camera angle, it’s futile)
May you be blessed with love and all of that good stuff from the channelers of the Pleiadians, where no planets exist. Whatever fits the belief! Those channelers need to visit James Randi (Google his million dollar prize).
Reach for the sky, but the sky isn’t the limit. We are.
Beware of people exploiting human’s thirst for knowledge/belief in such things for fame and money… Lots of glorious plagues!
@Skorum
Beware of David icke, I’ve caught him in many lies…
He loves to mix conspiracy theories with rubbish and says he wants love and light. That should ring bells in your brain right there.
From a psychological/critical thinking standpoint, he’s out for fame/money or delusional (I’m betting on out for fame and money. Watch critical thinking at work..). I’ve watched a few of his long videos, quite the scenario, trying to make people anti-government and shizophrenic it seems… NOT productive, I don’t see how anybody who claims they think logically can take his words with nothing more than a grain of salt, but as you pointed out when you quoted me… (I’ll let you figure that out when you go read it, it may be revealing)
Think for yourself, don’t let people’s ideas influence your own. By making the statements you made, you are unaware that you are contradicting yourself.
Don’t drink David Icke’s Kool Aid (pun), you’ll see I’m right about him, remember I warned you. PLEASE REMEMBER! It will show you how good an education is. His newest claim is 2016, people like him always change dates, but hey, he may like the spotlight, huh? (HINT!)
Again, refrain from cognitive dissonance when Icke’s prophecies also fail (like Billy Meiers, although that’s more like Scientology now). He make make new dates, they always do…. Sociology stuff.
I have a high education, it doesn’t mean I’m not open minded. That’s another logical fallacy and comfirmation bias people make all the time. It makes absolutely no sense… Very bad assumptions.
I dare you to read ‘When Prophecy Fails’. Have a good day.
David Icke — what a waste of time listening to that nonsense.
To Men who tell the truth with evidence in hand ,I have been happily enlightened by your awsome teaching , I now look with new eyes ,and I am not afrraid of the dark anymore. Question everything ,thank you ,Dont stop ,We need this.
you’re welcome; nice to know people find it useful.
I really do understand your scepticism in David Icke and in me, and you should be sceptical.
I would never ever want to believe something without knowing truth in it. Sometimes I do find bias in my way of thinking, and I am aware of there being more, and so should you.
I am not saying at all, that every word he says is true. I saw him in Stockholm in Sweden last year, on a one day lecture or what you wanna call it.
There was books for sale and so on, I remember thinking why would he wanna make any money out of this. I reasoned that perhaps although he seems to have a lot of experiences he still has a lot of ego in him. I still think so. I also remember he said, he thinks the moon is hollow. I also think that he should very well be allowed to say such things. We all assume the moon isn’t hollow because that’s what we have been taught. Why do we always want to kill the guys that think otherwise? I can tell you why and that is because you think you have a lot invested in this ride. Money, status, or whatever. You want it to stay real, and David Icke is comprimising this.
To me, the idea of David Icke represents thinking for yourself, finding out your own truth, without ever letting anyone else telling you otherwise. After all, how could you ever find truth in anything if you just have copied the information?
You say that I make contradictions, perhaps, but understand my intent, and not just the words.
I do not doubt the vibrations, because I have experienced them myself.
I have gone out of body, and I have no doubt in my mind that there exists dimensions with beings, evil or good, whatever you wanna call them.
If every single person interested in science or pseudoscience would watch Thomas Campbells videos or read his books he or she would understand the small picture that has been given to us. Would a character in the game world of warcraft understand the bits of data it consists of? That is if we would assume the characted had awareness of itself and its surroundings.
Understand that your thoughts of David Icke are assumptions. So are mine. I just don’t understand why everone always hates these types of characters. They make money in a way they burn for? They do something they think help, and they receive money in doing so. Or are you saying that he is aware of being a fraud? I would say that any human, whatever they are doing, either they are murderers or rapists, they always do the best they can compared to what they got, you see?
The worlds view of psychology derives mostly from one guy, Freud, and he was a coke addict and in my view, not much of a guy to listen to at all. Mostly he messes peoples minds up by giving them a small picture view of what we humans are. i mean come on, what do we even know? We dont even really know what atoms exists of, we just have models that seem to fit depending on what we want to know.
I would like you to go deeper, what lies have you caught? Why are conspiracy theories always assumed to not be true?
About Billy Meier, I think you would like to watch an interview with one of Meier´s sons, he left the FIGU organisation and claims billy hit him and his mother. But, just listen to him what he has to say about the pleidiadians.
IF there does exist pleaidians, I would say that the MAIN reason why this whole thing with Billy went like it did, is because they would like us to think for ourselves.
I have been raised in a religious environment, it´s like a sect. But I got out of it. So I was born to this world taught to believe in a lot of stuff. I question everything nowadays. But some truths I have found out. Like the vibrations and that time and space are constructs and that consciousness really is are there is.
Please, listen to me, I think you won´t because if you would have listened to me, you would already have gone to search for clues in these guys and then compared the data with your own experiences:
Robert Monroe
Raymond Moody
Brian L Weiss
Well, yes it is the same character. I brought him up to this subject because he was the first one (maybe not the first one, but certainly the most recognized) to make some nice research of the NDE phenomenon, I think it DOES have something to do with this blog, becuase the research makes us question our belief of what we are.
I am starting to realize that having opinions in this subject and posting in sites like this will take a great deal of time and effort. I don´t know if I am capable of discussing these matters in your version of truth. (I have a feeling this last sentence will get the hungry wolf satisfied)
I don’t see any relation to this. You’d have to go off a very high and deep end via the consciousness trajectory for it. I’m interested in NDE research generally (read von Lommel’s lengthy book on it, as well as the Spiritual Brain, last year).
It’s quite the scenario. On Youtube it seems he’s a sensation to many, the like/dislikes are disturbing on his videos, example: ‘The Moon is not real’. (ARE YOU JOKING?!)
A lot of people ignore the obvious lack of scientific knowledge or 2D thinking/delusions… Along with his proposterous claims of a gallactic alignment, witch was conveniently changed to 2016 instead of his supposed ‘black hole vibrations’ (absurd!). An alignment happens EVERY year! Stuff these kind of people leave out, convenient, again!
Most people assume integrity of videos and content by their rating… Consesus psychology; Mob mentality; why think indepentently when it SEEMS to have been done for you (mental laziness)… All objectivity out the window. Most follow what seems like the ‘right’ answer, sort of like tigers following the alpha; let’s put out a human example, assuming the child with the best grades in school is correct all the time, that’s not good.
These things should be taught at an early age. Thinking objectively is critical. My son will know these simple things… Parents need to be aware. (in an ideal world, I’m actually more of a realist! LOL)
If you can’t find David Icke’s lies, I already stated a FEW…
He suffers from some sort of psychosis/psychoses or is just fooling the naive with his supposed vibrations, it’s like a new religion.
That is a logical assessment…
Another easy example, most ancients DID NOT worship snakes. Sorry David, but some people studied history and theology! There has been Animism from the start, no ‘serpent worshipping’ in so many places, they were often seen as part of reincarnation, due to the shedding of their skin, age, wisdom, and sacred. NOT worshipped as he states. A lot of older civizations worshipped MANY dieties. From ALL types of animals to celestial objects/clusters to rivers to plants (EGYPTIAN creation mythology example) to you name it! Humans are born believers and born followers… We must be careful.
Mike is right, we’re going off topic here, I wanted to point out the obvious, I’ve been watching a lot of this deception in action. Sorry Mike, feel free to correct me if I missed something, I’m half asleep:) I used to be loaded with that type of knowledge, it fades as we stray into other fields…
PLEASE: look up ad populum fallacy, may it help your Youtube browsing. My intentions are good. Always. I like to learn too, but I won’t listen to lies and ignore them (cognitive dissonance at work) because Icke speaks of love and light, bla bla bla, consciousness. Nobody fully understands consciousness… Get a few good neuroscience books. Obviously Icke doesn’t either! No raise in consciousness will happen like he says, it’s ABSURD! He’s skating on people’s lack of education and love for conspiracy theories mixed with love/light, WHOA… Need I say more?
As for Billy’s son, I’ve watched a few of his videos. His family has issues just like most. Unfortunately for him, he’s been dragged into his father’s schemes, so why would I be inclined to believe him? That makes NO sense.
I’ll conclude he’s out for fame and money(both of them), perhaps something more sinister…? Hmmm… Wobbly legs; and if you studied you’d see why educated people don’t usually debate such people. It sometimes just adds to their spotlight/fame… Just what they want. Only places who support such things ‘interview’. I’d like to see some objectivity…
Added note: I meditate daily. I excersize daily. I may clear my mind before martial arts training and coaching, but I don’t listen to rantings of madmen. It’s his ideas, not mine, like a plague the things are, internet memes.
That’s it on those topics. I’m not spamming Mike’s blog. Please hear me out, as i will look into your books and claims as well. You scratch my back, I’ll scratch yours:)
–Tom
I still want to make this connection, because of this Dogon mystery.
If you we don´t approach these types of matters from a deep end, maybe we won’t get all the data, or miss important data. Such as the pineal gland thing, where you perhaps can experience traveling to other star systems.
Anyways David Wilcock should be of great importance to you, his book certainly has a lot to do with this blog.
About this David Icke moon thing, I haven’t thought much about it since he talked about it last year. But I remember he said he found others have thought about and wrote books about it, the moob being hollow. According to rumors I have stored in my memory, (read or heard about it, perhaps total B.S.) all the craters go only to the same depth, even tough they are of different width. And something about the moon ringing like a bell when NASA sent explosives to measure water samples. I am not a physicist, there are certainly reasons for these rumors. And what do we know of gravity vs electro magnetics? Which is more powerful? Is the moon weirdly close to our planet if compared to other moons to other planets? That fact that the moon precisely covers the sun at some moments is fascinating. It is at the perfect distance. How come?
Anyways, David is a friend to this african shaman guy, Credo Mutwa, who says that in his culture they have stories of the moon being an eggshell brought here by two brothers of some sort. Of course this strengthened David´s theory, or beginning of theory? Hypothesis?
More than this I don’t really know about the subject.
Ok, I will have a few last opinions of my own =)
Much of what David points out does seem to be true, about a global elite.
Some kind of huge over-time cover-up about ancient information does seem to have taken place, think of the Christians “spreading” their faith by travelling to various old cultures burning and removing their data. What happened to the great library in Alexandria? Even if it is a conspiracy or not, there is a system with various consequences that have been spread through most parts of the world.
So why do we disregard everything he has to say, claiming he is a madman, maybe because he claimed that he is the son of god or that something is going to happen in 2016?
I am sorry for coming off at a mad angle in this blog, I do appreciate scepticism, especially of shows from mainstream channels like History Channel.
You say that nobody fully understands consciousness, I agree with you. But Thomas Campbell has 20-30 years of experience and gathering of data, in a scientific way. But looking at ways from a small picture view is not the right way.
I have some interest in neuroscience, but I am more intersted in if perhaps the thought is what is responsible for the activity, or if there is research of this kind instead.
As to the Billy Meier thing, I have gone through other debunking sites, I just don’t find all the proof I need of any of the two sides. The debunkers just don’t make enough sence, I mean the guy has one arm. He is a farmer, and even if he wouldn’t have had any contant physically or mentally he is a fascinating character. Perhaps the situation is neither black or white, but kind of greyish? There isn’t enough data to make all conclusions.
As to this blog, I wonder if any of you has seen these documentaries:
The revelation of the pyramids
The pyramid code
Magical Egypt
the subject and study of consciousness has nothing to do with proving extraterrestrial life. That’s what the Sirius post was about. I don’t have a blog dealing with consciousness, though I am interested in that subject, and have been interviewed about it (see Skeptiko). I’m just not pursuing that subject on this blog.
You are certainly debunking Robert Temple’s theory regarding the ancient astronaut but failed to criticize the current theories regarding “Black Hole”, “Dark Matter”, “Dark Energy” as propagated by mainstream science now.
You don’t “fail” at things you didn’t attempt. If that was coherent, then I’ve also failed in my bid for the presidency and a career in the NFL.
I’m not a physicist, and these subjects aren’t what this blog is about.
WOW…
I only see one person making valid and obvious points in this blog besides Mike.
Good Job mike. Thank you for your efforts, pseudo junk is not an easy thing to argue against. It’s very touchy and can backfire. I’m sure you know. I watched that video from Chris White, excellent viewing pleasure. I hate that show… Speculation and false dilemmas, fallacies everywhere not to mention: the selling of books! (and of course TV show makes a lot of money, and it feeds the other baseles baloney floating around.
You seem like a very intelligent person Alwayslearning. Keep up the good work. I can tell you’re dumbing down a lot of what you say, I visited that link, you are obviously above my paygrade by your videos and I’ve seen you talking in your feed. You use words I’ve never heard of, and I looked a few up, it made perfect sense! Your name is fitting, It was fun watching you shoot people’s naivety and assertions like you had homing missiles. I subscribed.
When will the believers of nonsense such as this realize that it’s a business? COME ON! Wake up people.
Dark matter, etc, what a joke! That has no base in this blog and there are some things we don’t understand yet. The best tool to find truth in the universe: Science(s). Period.
Find another way and win a Nobel prize.
Some of these posts are proposterously ignorant and arrogant, I mean no offense, it’s just the truth. “I have no education but I’m just as smart”, “I don’t want to be educated by the school systems, I’m scared they will indoctrinate me”… (NOT verbatim, but does it matter?)
Unreal, welcome to Earth.
Again, thank you Mike, I’ve been trying to show my friend the junk, and this is very helpful. I even used a few videos from Alwayslearning, he has references for everything he says, very good information sections, not the best graphics, lol:)
I was really hoping for some insight into these most fascinating subject. I ordered your translations, and I have to say, I do not feel cheated, but you have shed absolutely zero light on the topic. My instinct and study tell me you are utterly wrong about the Dogon and their knowledge. Why are you so afraid that they might be in possession of superior understanding? There are obviously vast connections and interrelationships of ancient knowledge that without a doubt, may have been superior to even our “scientific knowledge” today. What the Dogon know is not random or accidental, it REAL KNOWLEDGE. Its just isn’t from the sources we think it should be from. how incredibly unimaginative to dismiss that.
The Anunnaki translations have nothing to do with the Dogon. Why would you ever think it did? (Maybe the answer is you’ve been reading Sitchin?) The Anunnaki translations are about the the tablets say about the Anunnaki — the real data, not fairy tales told by Sitchin. And the Anunnaki (in the actual Sumerian material) have ZERO to do with Sirius, or the Dogon.
Well, I am not a “believer” in either camp, I do know that the website’s author comes off as biased, as do most so-called scientists. I have worked towards an advanced degree in neurolinguistics and it is in that study in which I found that the world is pretty much an illusion created by our inability to deal with the facts of the world around us; Walter Lippmann’s book, “Public Opinion,” illustrates, in part, why people create a different view of reality than what the facts present.
All “facts” are, in reality truths, due to what we are: human; we interpret facts based on our paradigm; in fact, there is no such thing as an independent/unbiased observer .
The Ancient Astronaut theory is interesting & entertaining and brings up some interesting facts about so-called history. I know that they, too, come from a biased position and so I must suspect their conclusions.
People like Icke take advantage of people to make money & advance an agenda (theirs or someone else’s is immaterial); in that camp I throw in the likes of Alex Jones, Art “B.S.” Bell, Thomas Edison, and more.
I know most “scientists” take exception to adding Thomas Edison, but that guy was a true piece of work. He took credit for his underlings’ work and then, when something came along that was better, he worked his ass off to create propaganda against the competitor (i.e., Nikola Tesla & alternating current) in order to keep sales up.
Michael Cremo & Richard Thompson have done a fantastic job in demonstrating that the archeological/anthropological field have their share of problems; and yet, they are often the most arrogant, presumptuous individuals I have ever met.
Perhaps, the world is not so nice & neat, black & white as the mainstream scientists would have us think; and, perhaps, the ancient astronaut theorists are completely missing the boat on their logical jumps; but, in the end, who really cares? If idiots want to throw money away at poor investments, they will, and nothing I can say or do will ever convince them otherwise; the ignorant have to decide not to be so any longer for themselves.
Thank you for the site & for allowing me to post comments.
Is what you learned about neuro-linguistics an illusion, or real?
All of this put a smile on my face and made my head hurt at the same time… I wish aliens would show themselves, either from within their underground/underwater base or their elusive planet/flying machines, or the messiah would return so my little mind could finally get some rest. In the mean time I have to look for signs of the antichrist, wait for nuclear attack, comet, meteor, earthquake, super volcano, solar flare etc, FEMA camp activation…oh what a list. If only I had time to balance the lower functioning sides of my brain and be able to give myself an out of body experience, I may finally get answers to whether big foot or Loch Nessy survived the previous calamity 3600 years ago and possibly sleep. I guess I will have to go back to prepping my apocalypse bunker and packing/upgrading/repacking my bug out bag and running my family through various survival scenarios until I can finally find the key to the bible code or learn to translate ancient Hebrew and Sumerian text and gain access to all artifacts and draw my own biased, half educated, personal paradigm driven conclusions. First I will have to produce a tv show or write a book to fund all of this. It will be something along the lines of “how to survive when the alien antichrist messiah returns from his/her underground heaven from under the ocean of his lost planet in a spaceship, speaking Sumerian Hebrew that causes nuclear meteors to fall to earth triggering solar flares, volcanoes, and earthquakes and you find yourself in a FEMA camp while having an out of body experience” based upon my translation of all the above mentioned contributors and Google search engine. I may just quit my day job of engineering in building cellular/wireless infrastructure for large public venues.
“he began to carefully expose them to the ideas that Griaule had “learned” from Ogotemmelli, only to have his Dogon friends burst out laughing”
I think the Dogon where laughing about Van Beek, who is a mormon and we know that so called “religious educated people” don’t like the paranormal, UFOs and Atlantis to exist, so what is new?