As I mentioned in the recent episode of the Naked Bible Podcast, the subject of angelic redemption seems to be percolating on the internet. I’m not sure of the reason. I am sure, as we discussed on that podcast episode, that the idea has led to disastrous spiritual calamity for some. Consequently, it seemed time to address the topic.
Before getting into the topic, I should note that some online think my “arguments” against angelic redemption are weak. This is curious, since I’ve never written anything on the subject. I don’t address the topic in The Unseen Realm. I know I’ve mentioned it here and there, noting that it is indeed a topic some folks have an interest in, or to say that I didn’t find the idea persuasive, as it has real coherence problems. It hasn’t interested me to this point, but in the wake of the podcast episode, it seems the right time to jump in. So this will be my first actual pass through the topic. I’m going to stick with English translation for the most part, trying to avoid a more technical discussion. I think this initial “simple” pass is sufficient to make my points.
The Basic Argument for Angelic Redemption
The notion that fallen angels[1] can be redeemed is basically defended along two lines: (1) God must offer them redemption out of fairness, and (2) the language of Revelation 1-3, where Christ speaks “to the angels” of the churches, apparently includes certain statements that sound like an offer of repentance. I’m not concerned with the first, as it’s a subject that has been beaten to death in discussions of election for millennia with little evidence that the Creator’s decision to have an unredeemed category is unfair. Romans 9-11 comes to mind right away.
It’s far more necessary to focus on the textual issue—the second line of defense. By way of illustration, here’s Rev 2:1-5 (note the underlining):
1 “To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: ‘The words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand, who walks among the seven golden lampstands. 2 “ ‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false. 3 I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name’s sake, and you have not grown weary. 4 But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.
The argument goes like this. Jesus speaks to the angel, then describes that angel’s moral / spiritual failures, then offers the chance of redemption to the angel. The logic of course presumes that the angel of Rev 2:1 (and elsewhere in Rev 1-3) is not a human and must be understood literally as a spiritual being—and angel. Further, if these angels are offered redemption, then it seems reasonable to assert that other angels who fell previously can be offered redemption as well.
The argument seems easy and effective. But it’s impressive only to those who don’t read the text closely and who don’t factor in other statements in the New Testament about the relationship of angels to God’s offer of redemption.
A Closer Look
We’ll start with Revelation 1-3. Scholars have of course commented on the angelic terminology of the letters to the churches. There are basically four views of how to understand “angel” (ἄγγελος; angelos; plural = angeloi).[2]
- The term angelos refers to a heavenly, non-human being. Their function would be analogous to the fallen angels (sons of God) over the nations. The angels “guard” the churches.
- The angelos is actually a human being, likely the pastor/leader of the church. The term simply means “messenger” and is used elsewhere in the New Testament of human beings (Luke 7:24; Luke 9:52; James 2:25).
- The angels are human beings, but not specific leaders of the individual churches.
- The angels are emblematic of the churches, and so the communication to the “angel” is meant for the churches as a group. When Jesus tells John to write to the “angel,” he’s really telling him to write to the church. In a symbolic sense, the “angel” is that church.
As we proceed it will become apparent which view I think is the most sensible and why (textually). First a background question – does the analogy of angelic “guardians” of churches to the sons of God over the nations (Deut 32:8-9; see Unseen Realm, chs. 14-15) make sense? I don’t think so. Why? Ask yourself these questions:
- Since God punished the nations by allotting the nations to the sons of God (and vice versa), taking Israel to be his own (Deut 32:8-9; 4:19-20), why would he do this to his own family, the Church, the “Israel of God” so to speak? The original arrangement went horribly wrong (Psalm 82), so why would God imitate it with churches? I’d say God wouldn’t do that and didn’t.
- God did appoint Michael over his own people, Israel (Dan 10:13, 21; Dan 12:1). But the Church is now God’s people, apart from, but including believing Israelites/Jews. If the Deut 32 thing is the model for angels and churches, wouldn’t it make more sense to have the letters to the churches addressed to Michael? But of course it doesn’t say that (there are seven of them). I’d also add that anyone who wants to force this analogy with Deut 32 might want to think about how it affects their eschatology. They would have a very difficult time maintaining Israel as any sort of unique entity apart from the Church in light of this logic. That might be a big problem for someone’s end times views down the road.
- Scripture of course teaches that believers have what we refer to as “guardian angels,” and that angels are here to minister to human believers who “inherit salvation” (Heb 1:13-14). If this is true, what do churches need with guardian angels assigned to churches? I’d say they aren’t needed, and that this isn’t what Revelation 1-3 is describing. Angels already have their task according to Heb 1:13-14 and it isn’t corporate.
These basic background issues already show that the first view, that the angels of Rev 1-3 are heavenly beings, has some coherence problems. But the problems don’t end there.
Let’s start reading now. Back to Revelation 2. We’ll start with the first letter to the churches, the letter to the Ephesian church (Rev 2:1-7):
1 “To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: ‘The words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand, who walks among the seven golden lampstands. 2 “ ‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false. 3 I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name’s sake, and you have not grown weary. 4 But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. 6 Yet this you have: you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’
The underlining is important. Revelation 1 makes it clear that Jesus is speaking to John, instructing him to write to “the angel of the church in Ephesus.” Angelic redemption proponents want us to take notice of that. But in verse 7 we discover that what is being written is “to the churches.” So it’s simply not the case that the letter is written to an angel. It’s written to an angel and to the churches. All the rest of the letters follow suit. Yes, they are directed to an angelos (Smyrna, 2:8; Pergamum, 2:12; Thyatira, 2:18; Sardis, 3:1; Philadelphia, 3:7; Laodicea, 3:14), but are all also directed to the churches—i.e., to the people who make up these churches (Smyrna, 2:11; Pergamum, 2:17; Thyatira, 2:29; Sardis, Rev 3:6; Philadelphia, Rev 3:13; Laodicea, Rev 3:22). A phrase like “what the Spirit says to the churches” is in each of these references.
The point of this must not be missed: What is said in these letters isn’t addressed to only the “angel” or only the people of the church. It’s addressed to both. There is no indication that parts of what is written applies to the “angel,” and other parts to the people. The notions are overtly parallel:
Jesus speaks to John, instructing him to write to the angel of XYZ church.
What is written is later described as what the Spirit is saying to the churches.[3]
This issue of “who is Jesus really communicating to” gets even more telling when we look at the text in Greek, since Greek has both singular and plural second person pronouns and verb forms (i.e., singular vs. plural “you” in English cannot be distinguished by the form of the pronoun, but in Greek it can). In Greek the audience of the writing is clearly both the “angel” and the people in the churches. Here’s the point: You cannot neatly distinguish one from the other, which (in my view) is deliberate and points to the need to identify the “angel” and the people with each other. That is the only reading that can make consistent, coherent sense of what is said in every respect.
But I need to illustrate that point. This brings us to our first interpretive question. As you read, ask yourself if what the letters say:
- Makes sense addressed to a specific non-human angel-guardian of that church (view # 1 above),
or
- Makes sense addressed to the church’s people collectively? (Or, if you prefer, to the human leader of the church who “stands for” the church collectively) — views #2,3,4 above.
I’m going to suggest that the first option, the option at the heart of the angelic redemption idea, is the least likely. That status will change to “just plain unworkable and wrong” when we leave Revelation 1-3 and factor in other passages to the discussion.
Back to Rev 2:1-7. Read closely what it says:
1 “To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: ‘The words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand, who walks among the seven golden lampstands. 2 “ ‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false. 3 I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name’s sake, and you have not grown weary. 4 But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. 6 Yet this you have: you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’
Some phrases to consider:
- you cannot bear with those who are evil
- (you) have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false
- you have not grown weary
Do these three descriptors make more sense of people or angels? Do angels get tired? (I’d sure like a verse for that). I’d say they make more sense of people.
Now here’s the next church, Smyrna (Rev 2:8-11):
8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life. 9 “ ‘I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich) and the slander of those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10 Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.’
Consider these descriptive phrases:
- I know your tribulation and your poverty
- Do not fear what you are about to suffer
- Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life
- The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death
Do these descriptions really make sense of a heavenly angel? Do angels suffer poverty? Why would they need to fear? Does the devil really have the power to throw them into prison for ten days? Do angels die (“be faithful unto death”)? Who threatens them with death? Can Satan kill them? Why would God allow that? Where does Scripture say that Satan can take life like this? Just how do you kill an immortal being like an angel unless you hold the ultimate power of life and death, which only God has (Psa 82:6-7). Will Jesus really give an angel the crown of life? Not according to James 1:12 (“blessed is the man …”). And about the second death – those who are exempt from it are not angels, but people who are raised with Christ whose names are written in the book of life (Rev 20:6, 15).
It should be apparent that a heavenly angel reading here isn’t workable. Should anyone wonder if the “you” references in the above are grammatically plural, they are not. They are grammatically singular. And so you either have a heavenly angel being thrown into a prison in Smyrna, suffering poverty, under threat of physical death, and inheriting the crown of life … OR the “you” here is grammatically singular because the collective church at Smyrna is in view. The latter is quite sensible. The alternative (that we’re talking about heavenly angels here) lacks coherence, and that (in turn again) makes the angelic redemption idea moot.
Now here’s the next church, Pergamum (Rev 2:13-17):
13 “ ‘I know where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is. Yet you hold fast my name, and you did not deny my faith even in the days of Antipas my faithful witness, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. 14 But I have a few things against you: you have some there who hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, so that they might eat food sacrificed to idols and practice sexual immorality. 15 So also you have some who hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans. 16 Therefore repent. If not, I will come to you soon and war against them with the sword of my mouth. 17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, with a new name written on the stone that no one knows except the one who receives it.’
Some phrases to consider:
- I know where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is
- Antipas my faithful witness, who was killed among you
- I have a few things against you: you have some there who hold the teaching of Balaam…
- I will come to you soon and war against them
Archaeologists and New Testament scholars have established that “Satan’s throne” refers to places in Asia Minor where the Roman imperial cult flourished—in other words, a real place on earth in real first-century time. So, if that’s the case, is this passage really telling us that an angel lived on earth in Pergamum? If we’re going to literally understand “angel” here as a heavenly being, then we need to interpret the rest of the passage literally (or else we cheat). Continuing … Was that angel present at the murder of Antipas? Was he “on site” (as opposed to just watching behind the spiritual veil)? Do angels teach Christians things? Are they supposed to do that? (Chapter and verse, please, and duck when you come to Gal 1:8). Apparently this heavenly being (so we must assume) was lax in his responsibility to teach the church members not to follow Balaam. Will Jesus visit him literally, and literally make war against the humans following the teaching of Balaam? Would that visit literally be in Pergamum?
I hope you get the point. It’s much more coherent to opt for the non-heavenly being option when we read what’s actually said. The rest of the letters have the same sort of language in them—language that sounds silly or is contradicted at some other place in the New Testament if it’s applied to angels.
The letter to Thyatira contains an interesting juxtaposition in this regard (Rev 2:18-29):
18 “And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: ‘The words of the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and whose feet are like burnished bronze. 19 “ ‘I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first. 20 But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols. 21 I gave her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her sexual immorality. 22 Behold, I will throw her onto a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works, 23 and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you according to your works. 24 But to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not learned what some call the deep things of Satan, to you I say, I do not lay on you any other burden. 25 Only hold fast what you have until I come. 26 The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations, 27 and he will rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father. 28 And I will give him the morning star. 29 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’
The references to “you” in v. 20 are both singular, and so they refer to either the (alleged) heavenly angel (he’d be the guilty one) or to the people collectively. The passage tells us which makes more sense. “But to the rest of you” is key in that regard. Literally, this phrase is “but to the remainder,” with no Greek “you” pronoun in the text. That makes us ask, “The remainder of who or what?” If the letter had, to this point, been directed just to a heavenly angel, then the “remainder” would either be other angels, which is pretty odd (the angel is part of a whole). This strikes me as silly and, if one cares to be consistent with the text, can’t be the case, since only one (the angel of v. 18) is actually mentioned — i.e., we’d just have to invent the idea of a gang of angels attached to the church out of thin air.
Another option, that the “remainder” points to believers in Thyatira, makes good sense. The “remainder” who have been faithful are a remnant of the human group known as the church. They are part of that whole. Don’t miss that point, obvious as it seems. If the remainder = people, then the ones following Jezebel (“my servants”; v. 20) are also people. The “remainder” is part of that whole. But that in turn means that the guilty party = the church collectively (a group of human offenders), a remnant of which is remaining faithful. Why is that important? Think carefully: It means the “you” language of v. 19 (“I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first”), which are all grammatical singulars in Greek, would not be referring to a solitary figure — but in reality referring to the collective church at Thyatira—to its human members. This fact of the text, drawn from close reading, is significant for the whole discussion. It means the “angel” language actually represents the human, collective church.
With this observation in place, we go on to ask if the thought is consistent with other features of the text. Who, then, would be in view for “holding fast” and “conquering” and “keeping [the Lord’s works,” and “receiving authority over the nations, . . ruling them with a rod of iron . . . receiving authority from the father . . . the morning star”? Why people of course. This means angelic redemption isn’t in view. All the fruits of repentance are directed toward people.
The descriptions of the churches in Revelation 3 follow this course. The singular “you” language that seems to refer to the “angel” really applies to people—the people in the churches, to whom the Spirit is speaking in every letter. This view has explanatory power because it offers interpretive consistency (across both testaments). Just look at what’s said about the “angel” in each case:
Sardis (Rev 3:1-6)
To the angel of the church in Sardis write…
- You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead (an odd description for a heavenly angel on God’s side)
- If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you (interesting that this language is used elsewhere of human believers at the Lord’s return: 1 Thess 5)
- I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels (This language found elsewhere in Scripture has only humans in view, so it’s no description of an angelic possibility: blotting out of the book: Exod 32:32; Deut 29:20; Luke 10:20; Phil 4:3; Rev 13:8; Rev 17:8; Rev 20:12, 15; Rev 21:27; Rev 22:19; confessing before the Father: Matt. 10:32; Luke 12:8).
Philadelphia (Rev 3:7-13)
To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write…
- you have kept my word and have not denied my name (who bears the name of Christ in NT theology? People: 2 Tim 2:19; cp. Acts 11:26)
- I will make [the synagogue of Satan] come and bow down before your feet, and they will learn that I have loved you. Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth (the last item is telling – the words are clearly directed to people, those who dwell on the earth—and yet the “you’s” preceding are singular, pointing back to the “angel”. The angel = the church, its people.
- Hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown (singular again, and wording that elsewhere clearly refers to human believers: James 1:12).
Laodicea (Rev 3:14-22)
To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write…
- For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked (Does this really describe a heavenly angel?)
- If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me (Who gets to participate in divine feasting in both OT and NT theology? Who shares a meal with the Lord? Human believers: Exod 24:9-11; Rev 19:7-9)
- The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne (With whom does Jesus share the throne? Human believers: 2 Tim. 2:12; 19:28)
To summarize all this, I’d say these points are salient:
1. It’s not possible to isolate some of what is said to “the angel” of the churches in such a way that certain things do not apply to the church.
2. It’s quite coherent to see what is said to the singular angel to also be directed to the corporate church and its human members.
3. Much of what is said to the churches is said specifically to the human redeemed.
4. In view of the preceding, it is incoherent to argue that the letters to the churches are good evidence of the offer of redemption to angels. There is simply no redemptive language in the letters that can only apply to the singular angel to make a case that the redemption language has more than humans in view.
5. Since the content of the letters is directed to BOTH the “angel” and the human members of the church, and since the content is elsewhere directed specifically to humans, it is best to identify the angel and the members of church with each other. This strategy leaves no interpretive outliers (i.e., it has high explanatory power for everything in them), is consistent with the use of angelos for humans elsewhere, and doesn’t invite a contrived idea into the text.
But wait … there’s more. And it’s really the most important stuff.
Angelic Redemption Denied
This post is getting lengthy (my apologies), but I didn’t want to break it up and have readers wait for installments. Most of my readers are used to it anyway!
Let’s look at Hebrews.
That the supremacy of Christ over angels is a central theme to the book of Hebrews is well known. Hebrews 1 establishes that point by comparing and contrasting Jesus to the angels. The chapter ends this way (Heb 1:13-14):
13 And to which of the angels has he ever said,
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent out to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?
In light of the discussion of the letters to the churches, it is interesting to note that v. 13, a quote from Psalm 110 about the messiah, is mimed closely by something Paul says about individual human believers:
Rom 16:20 – The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
The “your” here is plural—it is not a reference to the serpent / Satan being crushed by the heel of the messiah. It’s a reference to human believers placing their feet on the enemy (and all his, by extension) and crushing them. Victory formation, for you football fans.
But this isn’t why I referenced Heb 1:13-14. I want you to note the last verse. Ministering spirits are sent to serve those who will inherit salvation. Two questions are pertinent: Who might those inheritors be? Are angels possibly numbered among those inheritors? Hebrews 2 answers those questions, and those answers are plain as day. I’ve underlined the key phrases that are followed by brief comments:
Hebrews 2:5-18
5 For it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, of which we are speaking. 6 It has been testified somewhere,
“What is man, that you are mindful of him,
or the son of man, that you care for him?
7 You made him for a little while lower than the angels;
you have crowned him with glory and honor,
8 putting everything in subjection under his feet.” …
The world to come is the new earth described in Revelation 21-22. It is the global Eden I talked a lot about in The Unseen Realm. It is the goal of God’s plan. The climax of the eschaton. It is what the saved, the redeemed, the forgiven, inherit. And so, who is it for? Man. Humankind. We who were made lesser than the divine beings (Heb 2:6-7 quotes Psalm 8:4-, where it reads humanity was made a little lower than the elohim). Human believers, human members of God’s household (see the rest of Hebrews 2) are the ones crowned. It’s hard to miss that reference to the language of the letters to the seven churches (and again, James 1:12). Angels are conspicuously absent from end-times global Eden statement in Hebrews 2:5-8. We’ll find out why as we keep reading.
8 … Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him. 9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
Who is the “everyone” here? If we care about reading in context, it’s the human beings the writer referred to a few lines ago. There’s no other plural or collective noun that could be the grammatical antecedent. And Hebrews 2:5 specifically tells us angels aren’t in the picture and aren’t the referent.
10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering. 11 For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers, 12 saying,
“I will tell of your name to my brothers;
in the midst of the congregation I will sing your praise.”
13 And again,
“I will put my trust in him.”
And again,
“Behold, I and the children God has given me.”
Are the angels Jesus’ brothers and sisters—his brethren? By definition they cannot be. They are created; he is uncreated. They might be described as “made of something”; he cannot be so described. He has attributes they do not possess. He is Yahweh incarnate; they are not. He was never made like them—never made at all. Jesus and the angels are not, as it were, of the same “stock.”
But, amazingly, Jesus and humans are of the same stock. How? God the Son became human. And so he is not ashamed to be called our brother. And if you read verse 10, it’s clear that WE are the object of the salvation he founded. Not the angels.
14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. 16 For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. 17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.
We, not angels, were the ones under the curse of death. This is why redemption has us in view, not the angels. And verse 16 makes it absolutely explicit:
For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham.
Galatians 3 (esp. vv. 7-9, 26-29) make it clear that the “offspring of Abraham” are believers, Jew or Gentile (not angels):
7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. . . .
26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.
The “help” in context in Hebrews 2:16 = rescue from death (via resurrection) and, therefore, a home in the new Eden, the new earth. That’s the destination of the redeemed. The salvation of humanity is the goal of the plan of incarnation, substitutional death, and resurrection. The angels are not. “Therefore he [Jesus] he had to be made like his brothers in every respect” (even unto death). Jesus wasn’t made like the angels (Hebrews 1 denies this in many ways). He was made like us, so that we could be made like him at his coming (1 John 3:1-3).
I’m not sure why all this isn’t crystal clear to some. It’s difficult to imagine the writer of Hebrews being any clearer. It’s so clear in fact that, for me, Hebrews 1-2 is the place any defender of angelic redemption must start. But I’m not at all sure why anyone would invest time in making those chapters not say what they very obviously are saying. But I’ve seen people absorbed by stranger things.
NOTES
[1] As readers of Unseen Realm know, I’m using “fallen angels” because the phrase is familiar to a popular readership. The “fallen angels” that are normally the focus of this angelic redemption topic are the sons of God of Gen 6:1-4 (the Watchers in Enochian parlance). “Angel” in OT thought is a job description of a particular elohim, a term used to denote any member of the disembodied spiritual world, not an ontological label to be equated with a specific set of unique attributes (see Unseen Realm, chs. 3-4). In the Hellenistic period “angel” became more of a catch-all term, akin to Old Testament elohim or Greco-Roman daimon/daimonion. The semantic issues are more complex than this, but for purposes here, this is adequate.
[2] In Greek two gamma letters (γ) side-by-side are pronounced “ng”.
[3] For you Trinitarian deniers out there, take note of how Jesus and the Spirit fill the same slots here. Just a side observation of this non-coincidence.
I think Revelation 2.5 in light of 1.20 make it extremely clear that the passages are not addressing spiritual beings, but the churches. On that note though, do you have any idea what exactly it means that Christ will remove their lampstand unless they repent in 2.5? Does this mean that they will lose their status as a church…and if so, what would that look like practically and could it happen to a church today?
Good point on Rev 2:5 in light of 1:20.
If we consider OT talk about lampstands to be the context for 2:5 (there’s no direct citation, so that’s an assumption), then they are connected to the Spirit. Zech 4:1-6 says:
“And the angel who talked with me came again and woke me, like a man who is awakened out of his sleep. 2 And he said to me, “What do you see?” I said, “I see, and behold, a lampstand all of gold, with a bowl on the top of it, and seven lamps on it, with seven lips on each of the lamps that are on the top of it. 3 And there are two olive trees by it, one on the right of the bowl and the other on its left.” 4 And I said to the angel who talked with me, “What are these, my lord?” 5 Then the angel who talked with me answered and said to me, “Do you not know what these are?” I said, “No, my lord.” 6 Then he said to me, “This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, says the LORD of hosts.”
The lampstands (and think of the menorah here, too) have something to do with the Spirit’s presence. The connection could of course cut a couple ways (loss of salvation? or loss of power). Beale thinks that the point is that “John views the ‘lamps’ as the Spirit that burns on the ‘lampstands’ (the churches), thus empowering them for witness (see on 1:4, 12–13).” (p. 231 – The Book of Revelation: A Commentary on the Greek Text (New International Greek Testament Commentary.
I think your notion is in play, though, that failure to repent means that the church will be eradicated. I don’t see a reason to exclude that. Aune goes that direction in his commentary on Revelation. The lampstand is removed “from its place” (Ephesus), not from heaven.
Anyway, that’s a quick take.
So would the Two Witnesses (lamptands) in Revelation 11, if they are indeed connected to Zech. 4.1-6 (#PortentRiddle), indicate that it is probably the Spirit’s empowering for witness that is being lost by the church if their lampstand is being removed?
Also, why is it that God still seems to work through churches that could fit this description of the church in Ephesus? This kind of goes along with the question why people don’t get sick and die from taking communion improperly anymore (because I’ve never been to a church that celebrates communion in a way that emphasizes the Body of Christ)? These things seem serious in the NT, but no one seems to worry about them now.
I don’t talk about the riddle in public forums. Two people got the answer, which will be revealed in novel #3.
My apologies, the hashtag was just meant to be in reference to the Zechariah passage – not expecting an answer to the riddle (but I am certainly eager to read novel #3 and see what the answer is!)
Some other theological approaches would be as follows:
1) The Son made everything for Himself. So, it is odd to imagine He would lose some things permanently. Everything flows from that idea. Yes, God loves free will and He honors it, but, does the “every knee will bow” thought mean all humanity & angels one day get the same deal Paul got at Damascus? Or some would say Thomas and James also got. the “seeing” deal.
2) The doctrine of apokatastatsis of all things that Peter and Paul discussed sounds universal. Peter said that’s what the prophets were getting at in Acts.
3) There’s a book titled “Terms for Eternity” by Ilaria Ramelli & David Konstan in which they demonstrate that the proper translation of aionios was never “eternity” in Greek history unless directly associated with the word “God”.
Aidios was, not aionios.
This means the “aionios/eternal hellfire” “aionios/eternal contempt” and those type passages may not mean eternal if she’s accurate.
They say that Augustine didn’t like Greek, so when he translated the NT into Latin, there is 1 term in Latin for both aidios/aionios and it is eternal and we accepted that line of logic from the Catholics while rejecting other stuff. The Orthodox church never saw it that way.
4) Jesus tended to use gehenna where we have “aionios hell” and in the Hebrew version, Jeremiah used that term discussing Nebuchadnezzar’s invasion results and Jeremiah seems to mean the locale below Jerusalem where dead Jewish bodies rotted after the invasion of 586 BC & Jeremiah also used the “worm won’t die” type lingo.
So, why do we assume Jesus meant it for a metaphysical punishment thing?
He was aware of Israeli history and what all happened in the valley what with Jews, Ba’al worship, child sacrifices in a fire, mass burial ground from 586 BC,etc, etc.
5) It was either Isaiah or Jeremiah who said “all will be salted with fire and the sword” and Jesus is quoted repeating the phrase “all salted with fire”. Which leads one to see “fire” and “the sword” in these contexts as purifying as opposed to destroying or permanently rejecting the angel or human.
6) “Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess Jesus is The Lord……. in heaven, on earth and under the earth” .
That sounds like angelic creatures could be involved and it doesn’t seem to leave out any knees or tongues.
It’s a discussion that is popping up more and more. Moltmann has long held all creation is to be redeemed.
A lot of the statements in the bible about what God does in regard to redemption and salvation are taken by most people as statements of limitation, instead of simply statements of fact. “For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham.” is taken to mean that He (God) has not, nor will He ever, in any way, help angels.
Here is another case of limited scope –
“The world to come is the new earth described in Revelation 21-22. It is the global Eden I talked a lot about in The Unseen Realm. It is the goal of God’s plan. The climax of the eschaton. It is what the saved, the redeemed, the forgiven, inherit.
And so, who is it for? Man. Humankind. We who were made lesser than the
divine beings (Heb 2:6-7 quotes Psalm 8:4-, where it reads humanity was
made a little lower than the elohim). Human believers, human
members of God’s household (see the rest of Hebrews 2) are the ones
crowned. It’s hard to miss that reference to the language of the letters
to the seven churches (and again, James 1:12). Angels are conspicuously
absent from end-times global Eden statement in Hebrews 2:5-8. We’ll
find out why as we keep reading….”
What is meant by “the world to come”? A physical planet to live on? The age to come? Why just talk about the new earth? Did the “new heavens” spoken of in scripture just get stripped off of an even “naked-er” bible?
A similar limitation of scope on Jesus’ work of salvation is invoked by stating that Jesus was made flesh and blood like us humans so that we could be redeemed. So that precludes Him working in the spiritual realm to make salvation possible for angels? He had to be made like us in order for Him to be our Kinsman Redeemer, but prior to His incarnation, He was a solely spiritual being, LIKE UNTO THE ANGELS (but at the same time transcending them as totally unique and superior).
Every knee bowing and every tongue confessing that Jesus is Lord will be done to the glory of the Father. How much glory is there in it for Him if this confession is made under tortuous pressure and not done willingly? Reminds me of a school bully twisting a kid’s arm until he says “uncle”.
The “worm that doesn’t die and the fire that is not quenched” are taken from the end of the book of Isaiah, and are one of the favorites of those who teach eternal punishment or annihilation. If that passage is really talking about the afterlife then one of the joys that the redeemed can look forward to in the next world is taking tours on every new moon and sabbath to go out and look at those worm infested sinners burning in Gehenna. Sign me up! And I’m sure glad there is that gulf separating Abraham’s bosom from “the other side” so that none of the redeemed will abandon Abraham & Lazarus to try to cross over to join the rich man in torments. I always thought it was kind of funny that Abraham mentions this first when explaining things to the rich man. You would think he would start by saying the gulf was to keep people like the rich man from escaping torment.This episode in Luke 16 is a popular “picture of the afterlife” that makes no sense if taken literally, but it is still paraded as proof for eternal torment, despite the fact that Judah had five brothers, was the kingly line (purple clothing), had the temple with the priests in its territory (fine linen), and all that went with it like the scriptures, the sacrifices and the worship services (faring sumptuously). Just because real people are mentioned does not mean it is a literal story. Those real people all happen to be ones who also have a lot of figurative things attached to them in scripture. “Seed of Abraham” and “Abraham’s bosom” are one case. Moses’ name is used to symbolize what he is associated with – “Moses and the prophets” is used interchangeably with “the law and the prophets”. Did the rich man’s brothers literally have Moses and the prophets with them? I think not. Even Lazarus is symbolic. His name is the Greek equivalent for Eliezer in Hebrew, who was the Gentile chief servant of Abraham. The symbolic tie between Lazarus in Luke 16 and the Gentiles is hinted at by the fact that he desired to eat crumbs falling from a table, and the mention of dogs. Reminds me of the Syro-Phonecian woman speaking in Matt 15:27 and Mk 7:28. Many years ago was reading Luke 16 and decided to check to see if there were any cross references for v.21 and began to I wonder why my bibles didn’t have any.. There were plenty of other thematic cross references in them that have fewer elements in common than these do, so why was Luke 16:21 left out? I don’t remember who published them but I think one was an RSV, one NKJ and the other a KJV.
I also wonder about the apparent conflict between the last part of Ezekiel 16 and Jude v6-7. How can Sodom have their captivity restored but still suffer the vengeance of “eternal fire”? I have had people try to say that Ezeliel 16 is talking about a different one than the one destroyed in Genesis. But this “other Sodom” seems to be pretty obscure, especially since it is never mentioned in scriture. And how effective would the restoration of an obscure Sodom be as a way to silence Jerusalem’s haughtiness? Others say it is speaking of a restoration of the city and environs of Sodom, not the people. In looking at the Hebrew word for ‘captivity’, it seems to always refer to people. So the people of Sodom that Jude (supposedly) says are undergoing “eternal” fire will one day be restored and their city will be given to a restored Jerusalem as a daughter (16:61)? And if these sinners from Sodom that Jude speaks about (v. 7) will be one day restored, what about the angels who he speaks about one verse earlier? Is it any wonder there has been talk about an “apokatastasis” through the millennia?
Hey Mike,
Enjoyed the post. Good things to consider.
This topic of the “angel” identity came up in a small group I’m attending.
The leader put forth the idea that the angel was the cantor at the church. He said that was an office in synagogues and churches that someone would fill where they directed liturgy and did public readings and such (among other things as well).
Wondering if that has any relevance to what you were discussing? I see you already mentioned in one of the 4 views that
“The angelos is actually a human being, likely the pastor/leader of the church. The term simply means “messenger” and is used
elsewhere in the New Testament of human beings (Luke 7:24; Luke 9:52; James 2:25).”
Thanks!
The “Fallen Angels” are the beings from Gen 6. Who are the elohim in Psalms 82? It’s not the same bnei Elohim correct? Afterall, the Gen 6 have already left heaven and have no power over nations. Meaning they are not the ones God allocated nations to. Therefore are there two separate rebellions? The first being the Bnei Elohim of Gen 6 and the second being the Bnei Elohim of Psalms 82?
Read Unseen Realm, or (free) listen to the latest podcast with Fern, Audrey, and Beth. The opening statement (it’s long) lays that out.
Why weren’t rephaim, and whatever offspring they had, offered redemption? It wasn’t their fault that they were born. Is there any portion that talks about that?
I don’t know the why, as we aren’t told. I just know that this is what Scripture says (and 2nd temple literature as well).
Could we take this further and say that unlike humans, angels are already judged?
Just before Jesus casts demons into a herd of swine, the demons say:
Matthew 8:29 And they cried out, saying, “What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us *before the time?”*
It seems here that the demons already know punishment is coming. They even know a timetable for when it is going to happen.
And what about everyone’s (on this blog at least) favorite psalm? Is Psalm 82 past tense? In v 7 God says “But you will die like mere mortals; you will fall like every other ruler.” I take that as sort of the court reporter’s transcript of the judgement being handed out. The punishment hasn’t happened yet, but the trial is over.
Yes, they know they are headed for judgment. They don’t even ask about repentance. Nice opportunity, but it’s not even in the picture.
Stop apologizing for long, content laden posts! I’d much rather have a single long post to save to my harddrive than 5 individual posts. Plus, people who follow your material are starved for content, so I say bring it on. So does this long post mean you’ve decided in favor of a book on sheol/gehena/hades/tartarus??? 🙂
LOL; Lexham wants the angels and demons book first.
no, fallen angels I feel have no chance , when those angels made that pact and did that horrible thing …. it was against God and all his creation, and the Angels that were watching and all creation(does the bible say that even all of creation groans waiting ) would be amiss if God was not just , he will prove it to all, and why would rephaim be included , were they created by the creator , nope , are they totally all human , nope , it would go against the order of things , God’s order and there is a judgment to come but that judgment is at the end of all things
Hi Dr. Heiser,
I read both the unseen realm and reversing Hermon, but I’m still not clear if the evil members of the divine council are presently co-ruling the nations assigned to them from a location in heaven (side by side with God), or from somewhere on earth. Are they still in power, or have they been stripped of it by Jesus’ victory over them and are now jobless? Also, could the many spiritual entities worshiped around the world like the virgin of Fatima, Guadalupe, etc, be considered members of the evil divine council, and if so, what rank would they have, i.e, exousia, kosmokrators, pneumatikos? Thank you, Dr. Heiser 🙂
Listen to the “Q & A with Fern, Audrey, and Beth” episode on the podcast for this:
http://www.nakedbiblepodcast.com/naked-bible-149-qa-with-fern-audrey-and-beth/
Thank you, Prof. Heiser. One more question if I may: when is it that Satan is going to be imprisoned for a thousand years? Is it one thousand years before the second coming of Jesus, after which he is released to gather Gog and all the other nations to battle, or right after the second coming? After listening to the second part of your podcast on Ezekiel 38-39, I got the impression that Satan is held captive for 1K years prior to the second coming. If that is so, would that mean that the possibility exists that he is already imprisoned waiting to be released?
Thank you so much. You’re awesome!