I know I blogged about this recently, but I came across the item below today and thought I’d post it now instead of later. As to the question in the post title ….
Short answer: No. Anyone who has look at Egyptian art knows that Egyptians portrayed foreigners as that color.
Longer answer: The question arises from a modern notion of race, popularized by Afrocentrist approaches to history.
That’s basically what this Miami University of Ohio thesis has argued:
Mwanika Ancient Egyptian Identity
The author is Eva Nthoki Mwanika, who works as a Program Coordinator at the Executive Education at Harvard University. According the university website:
Eva was born and raised In Nairobi, Kenya and came to the United States in 2002 to pursue graduate studies. Eva holds a Bachelor of Arts degree in World History and Linguistics from the University of Nairobi, Kenya; a Masters degree in Ancient History from Miami University, Ohio and a Masters degree in Semitic Languages from Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary, Massachusetts. Eva likes to travel and learn about different languages, cultures and people. She spent fall of 2006 in Israel and the surrounding regions. She enjoys reading, movies, music and engaging in current global events.
Here is the abstract:
This thesis looks at the approaches Afrocentrists and their critics have used in the investigation of ancient Egyptian identity. These scholars’ approach has mainly focused on the Egyptians’ racial characteristics. I argue, however, that this emphasis on the ancient Egyptians’ physiognomy is not only an imposition of a modern term “race” on a people who had a different world view but also that the ancient Egyptian self-perception has been largely ignored. In contrast, based on an analysis of ancient Egyptian art, literature and inscriptions, I propose an approach to ancient Egyptian self-perception within the context of the characteristic of appearance, manner, mind, familial and other social relations that have been ascertained from the historical context of the person in question. Thus this analysis provides an evidence-based, non-anachronistic understanding of the ancients, and concludes that the ancients had a non-racial self-perception and worldview.
Think of that: “an evidence-based, non-anachronistic understanding of the ancients.” What a concept!
Yes Ancient Egyptians saw themselves as black.Even Eva Mwanika knows that,but she is an insecure b#$h .Who is forced to write lies for fear of losing her job or being deported back to KENYA.But many Kenyan egyptologists and anthropologist not only agree Ancient Egyptians were black,but also many Tribes here in the African great lakes region e g Kalenjin,Bukusu,Luhya,Abagusii, Abakuria,kikuyu and Ameru tribes had migrated from Kemet.One such prominent Kenyan egyptologist is
Dr.Kipkoeech araap Sambu.see one of his slides here;
1)http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LKLo2Tj_oR8&itct=CDUQpDAYACITCOfgvOS3x8cCFckeHAodRtoJPlIqQWZyaWNhbiBvcmlnaW4gb2YgY2l2aWxpc2F0aW9uIGJ5IERyIHNhbWJ1&client=mv-google&gl=KE&hl=en
2) http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PeKkQKtq0Is&itct=CCUQpDAYACITCIqa3-a3x8cCFQrZHAodkN8LYjIHcmVsYXRlZEifwv7Hk5u60Sw%3D&hl=en&client=mv-google&gl=KE
3)http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=noKuBJdYs3M&itct=CBkQpDAYBCITCIqa3-a3x8cCFQrZHAodkN8LYjIHcmVsYXRlZEifwv7Hk5u60Sw%3D&hl=en&client=mv-google&gl=KE
No, they didn’t. Give me a primary source where an Egyptian saw him or herself as Negroid.
Great Sphinx of Giza is the proof.
of course!
Where are the texts?
I realise the links are not working..here check this out
1)http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LKLo2Tj_oR8&itct=CDUQpDAYACITCNGo8P7_p8cCFYXDHAoduSwGLVInRHIgc2FtYnUgYWZyaWNhbiBvcmlnaW4gb2YgY2l2aWxpc2F0aW9u&hl=en&gl=KE&client=mv-google
2)http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PeKkQKtq0Is&itct=CC8QpDAYAiITCOCdvLP0p8cCFRaNFgodAN4HI1InRHIgU2FtYnUsQWZyaWNhbiBvcmlnaW4gb2YgY2l2aWxpc2F0aW9u&hl=en&gl=KE&client=mv-google
3)http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=noKuBJdYs3M&itct=CCcQpDAYBiITCJiv7JT2p8cCFQdjHAodYDgHy1IYQW5jaWVudCBlZ3lwdCB3ZXJlIGJsYWNr&client=mv-google&hl=en&gl=KE
Pahaps you should ask Eva what Kenyans think of south Sudanese people.Kenyans see Sudanese people and NILOTIC people as Jet black people.Majority of Kenyans are brown or light brown.Majority of Sudanese are Jet black people.Yet both Sudanese and Kenyans are Africans.Ancient Egyptians saw this skin tone differences between them and Jet black NILOTIC people to their south,because Majority of Ancient Egyptians were Bantu people.Some Ancient Egyptian dynasties were south NILOTIC e.g 11th,18th and 26th dynasties.The most famous Bantu dynasties was the 19th dynasty of Ramesside line pharaohs. E.g Rameses III and his son Pentawere belonged to Y haplogroup E1b1a.
Can you direct us to peer-reviewed research for these claims, especially the genetics? I’d love to look it up and read it.
Here are the Y- STR data for Rameses III and his son Pentawere E1b1a (both are identical).Which I found in this BMJ study http://www.bmj.com/content/345/bmj.e8268
Y- STR data places his YDNA haplogroup in E1b1a using Whit Athey’s Haplogroup predictor:
his DYS repeats are listed as follows:
DYS 19 19
DYS 385a,b 20
DYS 389I 13
DYS 389II 33
DYS 390 21
DYS 391 8
DYS 392 17
DYS 393 8
DYS 437 14
DYS 438 10
DYS 448 20
DYS 456 13
YGATAH4 13
Plugging these numbers in Whit Athey’s predictor does indeed indicate that his haplogroup is E1b1a
with 99.1% probability using equal priors.
Also notice none of the scientists who carried out the research is black.So any claim of contamination is bulshit.
Extra care was taken while extracting DNA from the mummies,it was taken directly from the Bone tissue http://www.academia.edu/2308336/Revisiting_the_harem_conspiracy_and_death_of_Ramesses_III_anthropological_forensic_radiological_and_genetic_study
In case you don’t know E1b1a is associated with Bantu migration.. which explains the claims of most Bantu speaking peoples that they migrated from North Africa especially Libya and Egypt.Ofcourse others from KUSH.
Why would a person’s race guarantee no contamination in an ancient specimen? That’s utterly illogical. It’s like saying someone’s race guarantees no typos in a thesis.
At any rate, thanks for this. I know just who to send this to. Hopefully she’ll chime in. The surface problem I am hoping to get some answer to is simple (but I’m no geneticist): Since Bantu DNA in a bloodline doesn’t prove the specimen “was Bantu” (i.e., it just means there was offspring involving a Bantu or Bantus), does any of this actually establish your (apparent) thesis: Egyptians were Bantu/Negroes, or something like that)? Many millions of people have vestiges of Neanderthal DNA in them (at least that was the thought a few years ago), but that doesn’t mean they “are Neanderthal”. It feels to me like you are over-claiming, but I don’t know. I would expect a number of African/Negro tribes’ DNA would show up in Egyptians, but that doesn’t mean the Egyptians were XYZ race.
It would also be helpful to know what expertise you have in all this as well, though that’s not essential. I just know enough about genetics to know that DNA in a bloodline doesn’t mean a person is XYZ race. I’m sure there’s a way to move beyond that, but I don’t know what that is. I need to ask people.
As promised, I inquired of genetics experts to see if the claims you made herein were legit. They aren’t. The ancient Egyptians were not Negroid. That isn’t what the genetics say.
I emailed one of the authors of the academic peer-reviewed paper you sent – Dr. Albert Zink. Below is the text of my email, followed by his reply.
My email:
Dear Professor
I’m not a geneticist or paleo-pathologist. I was recently sent an article you co-authored related to genetic studies and Ramesses III:
“Revisiting the harem conspiracy and death of Ramesses III: anthropological, forensic, radiological, and genetic study.”
Along with the article, the following claim was made (I’m interested to see whether you agree):
“Kenyans see Sudanese people and NILOTIC people as Jet black people.Majority of Kenyans are brown or light brown.Majority of Sudanese are Jet black people.Yet both Sudanese and Kenyans are Africans.Ancient Egyptians saw this skin tone differences between them and Jet black NILOTIC people to their south, because the Majority of Ancient Egyptians were Bantu people.Some Ancient Egyptian dynasties were south NILOTIC e.g 11th,18th and 26th dynasties.The most famous Bantu dynasties was the 19th dynasty of Ramesside line pharaohs. E.g Rameses III and his son Pentawere belonged to Y haplogroup E1b1a.”
The claim that the majority of Egyptians were Bantu is of course used to prove ancient Egyptians were Negroid. Does your article support this conclusion?
My graduate degrees are in ancient history (Egyptology) and Hebrew studies, so the genetics talk is over my head. I don’t see the claim that most Egyptians were Negroid supported in the Egyptological record. But the genetic question needs resolution. I write a blog dedicated to debunking myths about the ancient world, so I’m interested in your comments.
Thank you!
Mike
>> Dr. Zink’s reply
Dear Mike,
Our article doesn’t support the claim that the majority of Egyptians were Bantu, respectively Sub-Saharan Africans. The genetic composition of North African human populations is very complex and cannot be addressed by a single Y chromosomal haplogroup. It was absolutely not our intention to address this question by analyzing Ramesses III and his son Pentaware, as we only intended to prove a family relationship.
There is nothing we can conclude regarding the population genetics out of this study.
I know that there are many people that try to use our results to prove their idea of a mainly Sub-Saharan provenience of the ancient Egyptians. However, this cannot be proved and I think this is more wishful thinking.
In order to draw any conclusions we would need to study many individuals and get their genetic profile. It would even not be enough to just determine the haplogroups, but we would need full genomic analysis for a detailed analysis. There is some work now done on the living populations of North Africa, but up to now we have no (or very little) genomic data of ancient Egyptians.
I hope this helps, let me know if you have any further questions.
Best,
Albert
>>
Dr. Zink was listed as the contact person on the journal article. His email address is there in case you want to verify. I wouldn’t recommend arguing with him.
Here is Dr Sambu slide..Check it out and get re-educated by real scholars.Not the current Eurocentric egytologists aka mainstream pseudo-historians.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LKLo2Tj_oR8&itct=CDUQpDAYACITCNGo8P7_p8cCFYXDHAoduSwGLVInRHIgc2FtYnUgYWZyaWNhbiBvcmlnaW4gb2YgY2l2aWxpc2F0aW9u&hl=en&gl=KE&client=mv-google
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PeKkQKtq0Is&itct=CC8QpDAYAiITCOCdvLP0p8cCFRaNFgodAN4HI1InRHIgU2FtYnUsQWZyaWNhbiBvcmlnaW4gb2YgY2l2aWxpc2F0aW9u&hl=en&gl=KE&client=mv-google
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=noKuBJdYs3M&itct=CCcQpDAYBiITCJiv7JT2p8cCFQdjHAodYDgHy1IYQW5jaWVudCBlZ3lwdCB3ZXJlIGJsYWNr&client=mv-google&hl=en&gl=KE
I want research that has survived peer review, not YouTubers.
peer review done by who?The Majority white egyptologists,who have a Eurocentric agenda to rewrite African history..
Any way you want it links?,These studies prove ancient egyptians were black africans.here are the links;
1)BMJ. http://www.bmj.com/content/345/bmj.e8268
2)JAMA. http://jama.jamanetwork.com/Mobile/article.aspx?articleid=1
3)DNA Tribes analysis 1. http://dnatribes.com/dnatribes-digest-2012-01-01
4)DNA Tribes analysis 2 http://dnatribes.com/dnatribes-digest-2013-02-01
5) King tut killed by Benin sickle cell disease
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn19094-f
6)Thuya gene http://dnaconsultants.com/thuya-gene
I can go on and on,even archeology http://www.academia.edu/6346508/_co-authored_Cultural_convergence_in_the_Neolithic_of_the_Nile_Valley_a_prehistoric_perspective_on_Egypt_s_place_in_Africa._Antiquity_2014_
Analyzed this way, ancient Egyptian skulls in
general turn out to be more similar to skulls from eastern African countries such as Ethiopia,Somalia,Kenya,Rwanda(tutsi) or Sudan than to European skulls (Kemp 2005). Sub-Saharan traits are especially strong in skulls from southern Egypt (also known as Upper Egypt) (Keita 1990, 2005), although they are less pronounced in northern Egyptian (or Lower Egyptian) skulls.
However, there is some evidence implying that
Egyptians did eventually mix with Asians and
Europeans. Comparison of Egyptian skulls across time shows continuity for most of Egyptian history, but there is a degree of change in later periods, when Egypt experienced increased infiltration from foreigners (Zakrzewski 2004). By
then, however, Egyptian civilization was in
decline. Any foreign admixture during Egypt’s
golden years was small in scale.
Ancient Egyptians also appear to be more closely related to Africans than to Europeans or Asians when we take into account the shape of their skeletons beyond their skulls. Particularly important here is the length of the limbs. People from Africa have proportionately longer limbs than people from Europe or Asia, because longer limbs more easily dissipate heat. Ancient Egyptians’ limb proportions are more similar to those of Africans than Europeans or Asians
(Zakrzewski 2003). One study (Robins and Shute 1986) found the Egyptians’ limbs to be even longer than those of most Africans, calling them
“super-Negroid”!
Another line of evidence concerns hair
morphology. One might think that all one has to do to tell what hair texture the ancient Egyptians had is to simply look at their mummies, but this can be misleading. Analysis of hair from Egyptian mummies shows that the proteins in it have been
damaged, possibly by chemicals used in the
mummification process (Bertrand 2003). Damage to hair’s chemical structure can change texture.
Fortunately, there is a more reliable way to tell
the original texture of a hair is by measuring the cross-section with a special instrument called a TRICHOMETER. Using this, one can get the minimum and maximum diameter of a hair. Then, one divides the minimum measurement by the maximum and multiplies the product by a hundred, producing an index.
Populations vary in the indices of their hairs’
cross-section. Curly-haired populations, such as Africans and Melanesians, have indices between 55 and 70. On the other hand, straight-haired populations, such as Europeans, Asians, and Native Americans, have indices above 70.
When ancient Egyptian hair samples are
subjected to trichometer measurements, they
typically turn out indices between 35 and 66.5.
This indicates that most ancient Egyptians had naturally curly hair, as do most Africans (M’Bantu
and Supia 2001). However, it must be noted that Egyptians usually shaved their heads to rid themselves of hair lice and wore wigs most of the time (often the hair used to make the wigs was imported from surrounding nations). Thus ancient Egyptian artwork does not usually depict Egyptians with their natural hair.
If we wanted to more accurately determine the
skin color of the ancient Egyptians, we should
look at the skin cells in their mummies and take note of the amount of melanin, the pigment that determines skin tone. Similar to what Cheikh anta diop did with his melanin dosage test.One study (Mekota and Vermehren 2005) did just that when analyzing
Egyptian mummies’ soft tissue. They described the skin cells as being “pack with melanin, as expected for specimens of Negroid [African] origin.” Unfortunately, they did not go into depth or specify exactly how much melanin was in the skin cells, but by choosing the word “Negroid”,they implied that the ancient Egyptians’ skin tones were within the range we call “black”.
I sometimes wish more white people would be confident and honest to tell the truth. Like these white people below.The world would be a better place with no racism
1) http://ushypocrisy.com/2014/07/12/why-is-hollywood-continuing-to-whitewash-ancient-egyptian-history-in-2014/
2) http://www.freemaninstitute.com/RTGhistory.htm
3) http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/06/23/arts/martin-bernal-black-athena-scholar-dies-at-76.html?referer=
Still looking into the genetics issue.
Dear Adam,
If you persist arguing with whites driven by ideology rather than facts, you will finish crazy!!! They will never and ever recognize that ancient Egyptians were Africans related more to sub-saharans Africans than any other people in the world.
If we could focus more on educating our youth and correcting the history written by white racists than keep arguing with them, that would be great.
Peace.
Hi Paul..Actually you are right.I should focus my energy educating ‘African youths.NOT arguing with these Eurocentrics.Thanks man.This is exactly what I intend to do.star ting now.Am not commenting any more on this page.
I love how “give me Egyptian data [i.e., primary source texts] for what Egyptians thought” means “Eurocentrism”. How compelling.
According to Dr.Zink
” In order to draw any
conclusions we would
need to study many
individuals and get
their genetic profile. It
would even not be
enough to just
determine the
haplogroups, but we
would need full
genomic analysis for a
detailed analysis. There
is some work now done
on the living
populations of North
Africa, but up to now
we have no (or very
little) genomic data of
ancient Egyptians.”
Sorry Doc,that has already been Done.Similar results
He is not the only scientist to find Ancient E1b1a in Egyptians and Sudanese.Even before they conducted DNA Tests on Rammeside Pharaohs.
http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/sesostris-the-great-the-egyptian-hercules/bantu-origins-of-ancient-egyptians/
the above was referring to this article
https://billygambelaafroasiaticanthropology.wordpress.com/2009/04/29/egyptian-dna-indigenous-to-north-africa-haplogroup-e-familia-m78m35m2/
Let’s start with DNA consultants
DNA consultants Egypt genes
1)Thuya-gene http://dnaconsultants.com/thuya-gene
2)King Tut gene. http://dnaconsultants.com/king-tut-gene
3)Akhenaten gene http://dnaconsultants.com/akhenaten-gene
Extracted from this JAMA study
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/Mobile/article.aspx?articleid=185393
All Jewish groups have African DNA because of their mixing with ancient Egyptians
http://forward.com/culture/140721/genes-tell-tale-of-jewish-ties-to-africa/
But Ofcourse pure Jews migrated into Africa after the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus 70AD.most modern Ashkenazi Jews are not even pure Jews.But indo-european Khazars ,who converted to Hebrew religions .All earliest paintings of Hebrews and Jesus,depict dark skinned people with woolly hair.
http://mobile.the-scientist.com/article/37821/genetic-roots-of-the-ashkenazi-jews
These African LEMBA JEWS are more pure hebrew levites than Ashkenazi Jews
http://www.freemaninstitute.com/Gallery/lemba.htm
http://www.sajr.co.za/news-and-articles/2015/06/02/africa-s-lost-tribe-of-jews-in-a-pickle
Love this article
http://www.monitor.co.ug/artsculture/Reviews/Ancient-Egyptian-Pharaohs-related-to-Ugandans—DNA/-/691232/2419938/-/cjldv9/-/index.html
Why don’t you ask your genecist friend Mr Zink,he will tell you and all other Eurocentric so called biblical scholars or biblical archeologists where genetically pure Arabs and pure Jews are found.Genetically pure Semetic Hebrews are only found in Yemen and Ethiopia.. see here about haplogroup J1 or J-M267
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M267
Usually these Yemenite and Ethiopian Jews were very darksinned But due to intermarriages with Persian and later Turkish women they became lightskinned. These Jews were originally exiled in Persia but migrated into Yemen and Ethiopia together with Tigray/Tigrinya Himyarites.
Pure Arabs are also found that only in two places, South Arabia,southern part of Saudi Arabia and Sudan.see about haplogroup JP209 here,
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-P209_(Y-DNA)
Due to early paintings of Hebrews, many people are aware the Hebrews were black,due to intermarriages with Niger-congo speaking original black Canaanites descendants of Ham.Hebrew tribes Like Dan and Judah intermarried alot with these black Canaanites. Even the maternal ancestor of Jesus ‘Rahab the Harlot’ was a Black Canaanite woman.After the exile from babylon.we learn from the book of Ezra 9-10 alot of Jews had taken Canaanite women for wives.Remember Canaanites were black Africans related to other black Africans e.g Egyptians and CUSH(Nilotes of Sudan).
Hebrews also intermarried with black Egyptians, for example Abraham and Hagar,giving birth to mullato Ishmael also married an Egyptian woman,hence that is why Arabs also became black.Moses married a Nilotic(Cushitic) woman,when they came out of Egypt.Solomon also married a Black Egyptian woman,whom he wrote the song of Solomon for.We know the woman i n the song of Solomon was his Egyptian wife because; (1)She says she is black.S.O.S 1:5-6..Infact she says she is as black as the Tents of Kedar,that means she was very Black,Jet black.probably Jet black like Queen Ahmose-Nefertari of Egypt.Tents of Kedar used by bedouins and ancient Somalis(Dedan) was very black.
2)She had long braids or dreadlocks,a black African hairstyle. S.O.S 4:1 and S.O.S 6:7.Hebrews and Arabs too had natural dreadlocks,due to their kinky hair.Modern Ashkenazi Jews cannot even grow dreadlocks naturally like Samson whose dreadlocks consisted of seven naturally formed locks for he was a Nazarite unto God Judges 16:17-19,solomon too had dreadlocks S.O.S 5:11,probably also because his mother was a black Hittite woman,Hittites were black Canaanites mixed with Elamites,and are related to the Amhara people of modern Ethiopia.You can genetically trace Amhara people to hittes aka sea-peoples by tracing these clades,I.e E-M123, Especially E-M34 subclade,,a Mede and Elamites gene,and also E-M96 and E-M329.The sword,headgear and shield of the ‘sea-peoples’ are very similar to Amhara sword,shield and headgear.
3)She was accustomed to Egypt and pharaoh,made comparisons about Pharaoh’s chariots in which only somebody born in Egypt would know about.S.O.S 1:9
4)She lived at the house Solomon bult for her in Lebanon. 1st Kings 7:1-8,2nd Chronicles 8:11.S.O.S 4:8.
Joseph also married an Egyptian woman,that means the tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh were also darksinned due to their mother’s black African blood.
So now the geneticist doesn’t know what he’s talking about?
The passages you quote are sort of silly — and off topic. No one is denying that the Bible and other ANE texts describe black Africans. The topic is “does genetic research show that the ancient Egyptians were Negros (Negroid = black race)?
The genetics claim of someone who says yes has been refuted here by one of the geneticists who wrote the article used for that proof.
I don’t think it’s saying too much to say that I side with the guy who put his name on the article for publication.
So, what you need to do is (1) find genetics research that you think supports your claim; (2) email the authors of that research to see if their work supports your belief that the ancient Egyptians were black/Negroid; (3) give me the same sources, and I will also email the authors (yes, that means I’m not just going to take your word for it that you in fact emailed them).
Those three steps – and I will insist on all of them — will provide future fodder for posting on this topic. Simple but important rules of engagement. if you don’t want to play by the rules, take it to another site hosted by people who won’t check up on your data and won’t insist on going to the specific sources. I’ll do those things, as my email to Dr. Zink demonstrates. This isn’t a site where you just get to post lots of stuff and pretend that the issue is settled. I go to sources to see if those sources are being represented accurately.
So, if I understand this — you’re disputing the words of one of the authors of an article you used earlier in defense of your view? In other words, it appears your own source is “good” only insofar as it agrees with you?
In sum, the geneticist whose article you tried to use to make your point disagrees with your parsing of his work. That certainly suggests the problem is you, not him. My guess is that you’ve also misunderstood the work of others in the field, charting your own conclusion that they wouldn’t support.
But here’s an idea: email the authors of these works asking them the question I asked of the first article. Then send that to me. I’ll do the same, and then I’ll post the results.
I have come to the conclusion,No amount of evidence I give will be able to get your head out of the sand.Like the proverbial ostrich, you prefer to bury your head in the sand,than accept the truth that is before you.The truth is too painful for you to bare,i suspect you are a white supremacist judging by your continous use of the word NEGROID.A racist outdated craniological term.Ancient Saharan and Nile Valley populations were BLACK Africans.Maybe you are not aware that oldest MUMMY in North Africa is a MUMMY of a black ‘African boy,known as ‘The black MUMMY of libya’.see here
Ancient Egypt
STEALING AFRICAN HISTORY
http://m.past.oxfordjournals.org/content/226/suppl_10/78.extract
How Eurocentric and Arab centric egyptologists use wet sponges to fade ancient Egyptian paintings from their original dark brown colour.
Quote from Amelia Edwards’ best-selling travel narrative, ‘A Thousand Miles up the Nile ‘
“The wall paintings which we had the happiness of admiring in all their beauty and freshness are already much injured. Such is the fate of every Egyptian monument… The tourist carves it over with names and dates… The student of Egyptology, by taking wet paper ‘squeezes’ sponges away every vestige of the original colour. The ‘Collector’ buys and carries off everything of value that he can, and the Arab steals it for him. The work of destruction, meanwhile goes on apace… The Museums of Berlin, of Turin, of Florence are rich in spoils which tell their lamentable tale. When science leads the way, is it wonderful that ignorance
should follow? ”
The use of wet sponges to fade paintings and inks is nothing new. Ink was used by the Egyptians as early as 2500 B. C, when they wrote on old papyri, which is still in existence today.Pliny, the Elder (A. D. 23-79), mentions that writing could he removed by
means of a wet sponge. Martial (A. D.100), a Roman Poet, always sent a sponge when he submitted new works of poetry, so that any of then could be deleted by his publisher. Although the Roman oil carbon ink, could not have been removed by water, it is likely to refer to the natural sepia ink.
But why do this?
Well most indegenous Africans are actually dark brown and brown in skin colour.It is only the nilotics of Sudan who are Jet black,and ancient Egyptians accurately depicted them so.One of the names ancient Egyptians used for their NILOTIC southern neighbours was ‘Ta-Nehesu’ meaning ‘she of Nehesu’.Other ‘African neighbours some Bantu and some nilotic were known by their ethnic names e.g Ta-merry, Ta-seti,Ta-kwi,Ta-shemu e.t.c.Ancient Egyptians Never used the term NUBIAN to their fellow black African neighbours.The term ‘Nub’ meant Gold in ancient Egyptian Because Gold was mined in the Nuba mountains region of Sudan and sold to Egypt.
Most ancient Egyptians later migrated up the nile towards,upper egypt,Sudan and the African great lakes region after Persian invasion of Egypt.
Original Berbers were blacks and are still black today,The lightskinned Berbers of today are mostly descendants of white Mamlukes slaves brought to North Africa by Turks to dilute the Black Tuaregs, or the the slaves of the Black MOORS brought over to North Africa after the so called RECONQUISTA in spain.These white slaves were more numerous than their moorish masters. Because black MOORS married white female slaves brought from Iberia.
Also,ever heard of BARBARY SLAVE TRADE?
Yes this is Slavery conducted by black North Africans against white Europeans.Over a million whites were enslaved.Majority,high percentage of the slaves were white women.
http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2004/mar/10/20040310-115506-8528r/
That explains the high frequency of southern European mtDNA in North Africa.
To answer your question, YES.Ancient Egyptians were BLACK Africans. Some customs practiced by ancient Egyptians were practiced by BLACK Africans alone.These customs are rare or even Non-existent in semitic or indo-european cultures.
e.g
1)circumcision of Teenagers as a right of passage.This is different from infant circumcision practiced by Semites and some Bantu tribes.This unique type of circumcision is only practiced by black Africans and some Polynesians.Ofcourse taken to those places by east ‘African sailors during the silk trade.
2)Use of Leopard skins as a symbol of divine royalty.Only black Africans practiced and still practice this custom.The Belief in Divine Kingships is uniquely black African.
3)HEQA witchcraft/HEQA dolls.Use of voodoo dolls.a type of witchcraft in central Africa around Congo is known as HAKA MANGA..meaning strong medicine.
4)’African hairstyles common with ancient Egyptians were sidelocks,shaving bold,warrior piglet hairstyle, dreadlocks, braids,hair extensions,so-called Nubian wigs,braided beards and Afros.Infact Afro combs were found in ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia. Only black Africans had Afro-combs.
5)Material culture of ancient Egyptians were uniquely black ‘African.their lyres,drums,percussions, flutes are still used in the African greatlakes region and West Africa.
Use of headrests another uniquely black ‘African custom.
6)ritual scarifications for the dead, use of henna and red ocre paint.
7)Mudbrick houses of Egyptian commoners.
8)Belief in the underworld, family burial shrines,ancestor worship, long burials and mourning periods for kings,chiefs,priests or important people.taking up to eight months sometimes.Retainer sacrifice,Mummification and embalming of dead leaders, kings,chiefs e.t.c,a custom still practiced in Sudan,african Great Lakes Region and Southern Africa. e.g Datooga,shona,Zulu,Shilluk.And hundreds more .
9)Martriachy and Caste systems e.g Kings,priests, scribes,military,farmers,herders,hired servants,slaves(prisoners of war).
10)Animal Totems that are uniquely ‘African.E.g crocodile, Leopard,hawk,snakes,rhino,elephants e.t.c.Also like most black Africans,the Lion and hawk Totems are associated with the royal family.
11)EGYPTIAN deities still worshiped in the greatlakes region and Sudan.e.g ASIS(Isis),PTA or KI-PTALEL(Ptah),Ruwa or Rwa(Ra),Imana(Amun),IMANARWA(Amun-ra),NETOROR(NTR),APESO(Apis),LHAPI or API (HAPI) e.t.c
12)Similarities of ancient Egyptian language with south nilotic Kalenjin and some central ‘African Bantu dialects.e.t.c
These are just but a few of the cultural unity of ancient Egyptians and black Africans.
Mr .You can choose to be biased and continue to uphold the myth of white supremacy and EurocentricPseudo historical, anachronistic lies.My intention was not to make you change your mind. But to hit you with the truth.The bible says ‘There is nothing hidden that shall remain uncovered’.So I am not worried. Fact is ancient Egyptians were black Africans. I think my conversation with you is over now.
My head isn’t in the sand. Asking you to contact the authors of the articles you cite in your defense to make sure THEY agree with how YOU read THEIR work is totally reasonable. If you won’t do it, I can only conclude you’re afraid to do so.
I’ve already done the above once and found the author (a geneticist) in total disagreement with your reading of his work. It’s your turn now. I’m not going to spend my time trying to validate your ideas. That’s your job. Again, you must fear the process.
Thanks for this exchange — it will live a long time on this site. Many others will find it instructive.
There seems to be no way you can change these types of people. They believe what they want. It’s obvious they were black. Unless you are a supreme racist or just plain dumb. Know this though. It’s his loss. He can’t fathom the idea that black people ruled the greatest civilization in ancient times. Even after Romw conquered Egypt. It was still the richest province. He will never be able to see Egypt in its African context. Which means he will only know lies. I’m a white male by the way. I find it fascinating that the Egyptians were black. They had whites as slaves. There’s a double edged sword for this though. Basically blacks can no longer accuse whites over slavery because they had them too. You can’t get one without the negative aspect.
Thanks Sam.It is a relief,finally meeting enlightened confident white people like you that are able to think logically and separate fact from fiction.Every human race has had its accomplishments and has contributed to Civilization.It started with black Africans(Sumeria and Egypt),then Semites(Assyria and Persia) and Asians(Harrapan,china and meso-america),but now we are in the era of European domination that started from greko-romans and continues up to date for two millennia.Empires and kingdoms rise and fall to be replaced by others. Now that the world is becoming a global village, we will all need truthcentric scholars and individuals like you to direct humanity to a more unified future where we embrace each others contribution to Civilization, accomplishments and history.
About Slavery, yes Slavery has existed in all human cultures including African.Infact Slavery in Africa lasted up to the last mid 19th century. You must understand that there was a huge difference between African Slavery and other forms of slavery. The first slaves were usually prisoners of war captured in battle. Those that willingly surrendered.Unlike European and semitic cultures, it is a taboo in most African cultures to kill an enemy that has surrendered. That is how the institution of Slavery started.These captured prisoners had to be put to a life of servitude.Unlike Europeans Africans never dehumanised their slaves.Infact their were laws protecting the rights of slaves.In African Slavery,there was upward mobility and assimilation.A slave could earn or buy his or her freedom.There many incidences where slaves rose to the position of army generals,scholars,administrators and even married to the noble classes.Also African and semitic slavery never discriminated on the colour of the skin.A good example is Egyptians, who enslaved both fellow Africans,southern Europeans and Semites.If I use examples from the bible. Joseph was a semitic slave who rose to prominence in ancient Egypt, even becoming a prime minister in Kemet.Hagar was a female Egyptian slave bought by Abraham the Hebrew who was actually a Syrian,at a time Syrians themselves were captured and sold as slaves in ancient Egypt.Slavery had nothing to do with skin colour.
Examples in the Arab world; during the 1st century AD onwards Untill the middle ages.Black skin was associated with nobility and purity,because the most pure southern Arabs including Islam’s ‘Prophet’ Muhammed’s Quraysh Arab tribe were black.Most slaves were Slavic whites.That is where the term SLAVE came from I.e Slavs=slaves.It is only after the Turkish Ottoman empire rule that blackness came to be associated with Slavery.
Whites such as Arians,Europeans and Turks were the first to institutionalise slavery based on the colour of the skin.Ottoman Turks and Muslim black moors enslaved more Europeans than Africans. Because there was high demand for female white sexual slaves in North Africa.There were hundreds if not even thousands of harems all over North Africa that involved white southern European women.Resulting to the mostly mullato populations of North Africa today.
To me,all forms of slavery was wrong. But European Slavery was worst,because slaves could never rise to prominence and their children almost could never access education.
Thanks for your voice of reason, and being attentive also to points of views that in some cases contradict your own.That is very scientific and gentlemanly of you.Unlike most Eurocentrics who are emotional reactionists and extremely illogical.
I agree with you this was a very instructive and informative exchange.Hopefully it will shape our understanding on our human historical past without distortion and misinformation.
I will conclude our exchange by a quote from
SIR ERNEST ALFRED THOMPSON WALLIS BUDGE (27
July 1857 – 23 November 1934)
he was an English Egyptologist, Orientalist, and philologist who worked for the British Museum and published numerous works on the ancient Near East .
Interestingly Budge studied at Cambridge from 1878 to 1883. His subjects included Semitic languages :Hebrew, Syriac, Ethiopic and Arabic; he continued to study Assyrian independently.This is something budge had in common with you.I suggest you learn from him.His quote;
“There is no doubt”, he said of
Egyptian religions in Osiris
and the Egyptian Resurrection
(1911), “that the beliefs
examined herein are of
indigenous origin, Nilotic or
Sundani in the broadest
signification of the word, and
I have endeavoured to explain
those which cannot be
elucidated in any other way,
by the evidence which is
afforded by the Religions of
the modern peoples who live
on the great rivers of East,
West, and Central Africa . . .
Now, if we examine the
Religions of modern African
peoples, we find that the
beliefs underlying them are
almost identical with those
Ancient Egyptian ones
described above. As they are
not derived from the
Egyptians, it follows that they
are the natural product of the
religious mind of the natives
of certain parts of Africa,
which is the same in all
periods.”
Also here is the link to the Libyan black mummy which I failed to post in my previous comment
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uan_Muhuggiag
God bless you sir,and by his unfailing Grace may he help you in your biblical. research.Which is only possible through the revelation of the Holy Spirit.Because the Words of the bible are sealed,ask God for the spirit of wisdom,knowledge and understanding to help you.
Shalom.
No one doubts that Libyan pharaohs were Libyan (and black), but that isn’t the issue. The claim is that native Egyptians were black, an idea for which there is no data.
You should be aware that Budge is universally viewed as flawed (in terms of his treatment of hieroglyphs and other languages). That isn’t a comment on Budge per se — it’s just that depending on early 20th century knowledge of these languages is unwise and methodologically errant. Scholars really HAVE learned a lot about these languages, their grammar, and consequently the literary record, since the late 19th century / early 20th century. No Egyptology program in the world (really) would require Budge’s tools, grammars, or textual analyses in courses on these languages).
MSH. How can the Lybians be black. But not the AEs? It seems that all of Africa was black until the Phoenicians came and colonized North Africa. Sorry guys. Hannibal was a white. But the AE were certainly. I actually used to believe the Lybians were white.
Because they are different cultures – like today. All people in one region (North Africa in this case) need not be one race. Egyptian art makes a clear distinction between native Egyptians and Libyans (and Nubians, with respect to black skin). It also portrays “Asiatics” (Semites) differently than native Egyptians (other features).
Hannibal was black ‘African.The ancient coin showing ‘Negro’ Hannibal is real.The one with Caucasian Hannibal is fake.proven fact.It is a forgery.There were many black Africans in Roman army.Even generals and centurions.
This doesn’t address the Egyptian texts and art about themselves vs. others. This is about ancient Egypt, not Carthage. No one denies there were blacks in Africa in antiquity — that isn’t the question. We’re talking about the Egyptian people as they identified themselves vs. other Africans, like Libyans.
You don’t get to change (or ignore) the issue here. Maybe that works on other sites. If you don’t produce answers to the holes in the thesis, don’t waste your time commenting. You don’t just get to put thousands of words up here without producing coherent answers.
In case you are wondering how the lybians can be white but the Egyptians black and on the other side of Egypt be white as well? The population in the Nile valley came from the south. Just Google hippopotamus and look at where they are. And also look at a picture of Africa from above space and look at where all the green is.
I don’t Google information about how ancient Egyptians saw Libyans — I read what the Egyptians wrote. The Libyans were not white, and the Egyptians weren’t black (Negro). I’ll let their texts and art speak for them.
Dude. They completely referenced themselves as black. Is Obama black or white to you? He is in fact half black half white. But he considers himself to be black. His wife and children are all black. The Egyptians related far more to the southern reaches of Africa rather than to the east. They painted themselves between the colors of Semites and Nubians. Which in our world today is BLACK. They braided their hair like blacks. Had cornrows. They wore leopard skin clothing. How much more African can you get?? Why is it so hard for you to fathom that black people have ruled this earth for a time? They of course new of pitch black people. But those are deep tropical Africans.
Dude – give me a citation from an Egyptian text that says that. Egypt had (for two concurrent dynasties – the 22nd and 23rd) Libyan pharaohs. Apparently you’ve been reading someone who never told you that the Libyan pharaohs were only two dynasties — and very late ones at that.
Who cares about Obama? He has absolutely nothing to do with ancient Egypt.
Actually Obama has alot to do with Ancient Egypt.His father’s tribe the LUO, were founders of ancient KUSH.
absurd
MSH, it’s a waste of time talking to these people as they are only determined to keep repeating their beliefs. depictions of the egytians alongside nubians only demonstrates they are not bantus. plus despite claims by adam about wooly hair, that is also not restricted to bantus, in fact their hair is more springy than wooly. plus the jews made it clear in the bible that they didn’t have the skin color of ethiopians. jeremiah 13:23.
Which bible verse are you referring to Todd?
1)Amos 9:7
” Are ye not as children of the Ethiopians unto me, O children of Israel? saith the LORD. Have not I brought up Israel out of the land of Egypt? and the Philistines from Caphtor, and the Syrians from Kir?”
OR
2)Jeremiah 13:23
” Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.”
What you said is too dumb.Who said the Aethiopians were bantus? Most bantus are dark brown or brown.Ethiopian referred here are the Nilotes who are usually Jet black.Even ancient Hebrews were brown people,not white/pink Caucasians.
The term Ethiopian here refers to the Greek word for Kush ‘Aethiopia’ which refers to the state of KUSH which was located in modern Sudan founded by NILOTIC Luo peoples.Luo peoples are western nilotic speakers e.g Luo,Shilluk,Acholi,Anuak,Alur,Dinka,NUER e.t.c.
Modern state of Ethiopia was known in Ancient times as Saba and later Axum.Get this right,ignorant American KUSH is Sudan.Ancient Sudanese are nilotic peoples.Not all Africans look the same.We have Yellow Khoisan speakers,brown Niger Congo speakers(bantus), brown Afro-asiatic speakers(horners),dark brown pygmies and finally Jet black Nilo-saharan speakers.
Ancient Hebrews and Arabs had the skin tone of Majority of Africans today.(read what I wrote earlier about Arabs and Jews here in the comment section
Rev 1:14-15 DESCRIPTION OF JESUS
According to Saint John vision
Rev 1:14-15
” His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.”
The colour of burnt bronze is dark brown.
@Todd..correction.
The colour of brass is dark medium brown. burnt brass is very dark brown
So Mike… according to the Bible, (the only text I care about) did the Egyptians come from Hamites or not?
Yes, but biblical people group terms are not biologically based — they are not about race / genetics (the way race is today determined, and should be determined). You’ll notice (if you actually read Gen 10), that not all the terms are even people (!)
Adam; you have kept your kool and gave real data and up to date information, only to be talked down to by a man who has very little data, very little info… White people and others whom they’ve infected with this madness can’t see their own racism.. I also hear some whites are trying to say that white people come from Zimbabwe, where the great walls are built, and that the blacks there could not have built such a structure… Black peoples bones have been dug up consistently, from many levels in the dig representing various time periods….. And still whites choose to believe whites built it.. They even built a amusements park somewhere near there for whites..
He hasn’t provided data on why the Egyptians characterized themselves differently than Negroid peoples (e.g., Libyans, Nubians). SHOW US THE EGYPTIAN TEXTS. SHOW US THE EGYPTIAN ART. Comments about Hannibal sidestep the question. Saying that requiring someone to answer the actual question is “talking down” insults the questioner — it presumes they can’t comprehend what I’m asking for.
Thanks Hank.unfortunately that often happens when I am debating these Eurocentric so call scholars. They are very unscientific and often childish and illogical in their arguments, most when they lose the debate even resort to racial slurs. Even when I debunk their claims like little kindergarten children they cry back to me “you are lying I know Santa is real because mommy and daddy told me so”..This disease called Eurocentrism stems out of envy,which is funny because envy and jealousy are feminine traits.Come to think of it,blacks are the least envious of all races.No wonder we black men are the most MUSCULINE and confident among men of all races.I am not a black supremacists, because I believe all men are equal before God.It is just something I noticed when I am in social settings.
So, it’s scientific to provide us with no data for your views *from ancient Egypt*? That isn’t exactly clear thinking.
Are you insane? Or just incapable of comprehension? ‘Are ye not as the ethiopians to me?’ – you think that’s a physical description? i must remember that the next time someone says i’m like a son to them. they just mean i look like them.
the ethiopians looked the same then as now anyway so the fact the israelites made clear in their holy book that they didn’t look like them in no way proves your non-point.
also, how does having a white head and hair make someone black? plus the description of jesus was a vision sixty years after his death. he had flaming eyes and a sword sticking out of his mouth. do all black people have those? nice cherry picking, apart from leaving the white head in. plus it says as white as wool, as white as snow. therefore it’s the colour.
and by the way, the original greek text says ‘chalkolibanos’ which roughly translates as ‘white bronze’ and has also been translated as gold and frankincense in other instances.
well done, you’ve proved your inability to process information.
…..the Zulu see themselves as different then neighboring tribes as well, and would draw those tribes up as being different.. To fit the various differences that stands out in the minds of the Zulu, this doesn’t mean the neighboring tribes aren’t black… You have to remember white was not the standard back then, so the various shades and complexions within the black race itself is exaggerated and eccentuated to show that difference to themselves (other black people) but trust me king tut would have been hung and called nigger by whites easily.. The same superficial differences with Nile valley black Africans exist in other black populations with no racial admixture. The proof is best looked for in past writings, the Greeks described them as no different then the Ethiopians, the ancient Egyptians themselves SAY THEY CAME FROM DEEPER IN AFRICA.. Most Arabs when I was in Egypt will say that they were black Africans, but one thing is for sure, the was not white. This is one civilization that white people had nothing to do with.. I think this is what whites hate the most. The confusion in terms of how my ancient African ancestors depicted themselves comes from the fact that the drawings on the wall is a message to themselves and other black peoples…. If black people was asked to draw their family members with color studies show black people draw themselves with more use of color; showing the various shades of our people…. But white people tend not to put to much emphasis on the various skin tones when drawing black people as a whole.. White people are more likely to become confused when seeing a picture of black peoples of various complexions, then other people of color, and particularly blacks who have the greatest/largest gene pool on earth. And again; the Egyptians themselves say they were black because they themselves say they came up the Nile from the southern most tribes of Africa, this claim in itself is say that they were black Africans without a doubt, because black people are the only people’s to have ever been found there.
Still looking for the Egyptian texts (cite them) and art work that has the Egyptians self-identifying as Negroid.
Keep posting; I’ll keep asking for the data. The failure to provide data is instructive for readers.
@MHS, I have analysed Albert R Zink’s answers, and below you will find my comments in capital letters:
– Dear Mike, HE IS RESPONDING TO YOU
1) Our article doesn’t support the claim that the majority of Egyptians were Bantu, respectively Sub-Saharan Africans. YES, IT IS TRUE, BECAUSE THE OBJECTIVE OF THE STUDY WAS “TO INVESTIGATE THE TRUE CHARACTER OF THE HAREM CONSPIRACY DESCRIBED IN THE JUDICIAL PAPYRUS OF TURIN AND DETERMINE WHETHERRAMESSES III WAS INDEED KILLED.”
2) The genetic composition of North African human populations is very complex and cannot be addressed by a single Y chromosomal haplogroup. THAT IS IRRELEVANT TO THEIR STUDY
3) It was absolutely not our intention to address this question by analyzing Ramesses III and his son Pentaware, as we only intended to prove a family relationship. i AGREE WITH HIM AS REFERENCED WITH THEIR OBJECTIVE OF THE STUDY
4) There is nothing we can conclude regarding the population genetics out of this study. YES, THERE IS NOTHING HE OR THEY CAN CONCLUDE, BECAUSE THEY DID NOT SPECIFICALLY STUDY THE POPULATION GENETICS.
5) I know that there are many people that try to use our results to prove their idea of a mainly Sub-Saharan provenience of the ancient Egyptians. HE IS SLIDING INTO SPECULATION
6) However, this cannot be proved and I think this is more wishful thinking. HOW DOES HE KNOW? HE IS SLIDING INTO SPECULATION. AND IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT HE THINKS. WHAT MATTERS IS THE RESULTS OF THE STUDY.
7) In order to draw any conclusions we would need to study many individuals and get their genetic profile. It would even not be enough to just determine the haplogroups, but we would need full genomic analysis for a detailed analysis.HE IS BEING FLEXIBLE ABOUT THE FEASIBILITY OF THE STUDY, EVEN THOUGH HE HAD SAID: “…THIS CANNOT BE PROVED…”
8) There is some work now done on the living populations of North Africa, but up to now we have no (or very little) genomic data of ancient Egyptians. BUT WE HAVE GOT DNA RESULTS OF PHARAOH TUTANKHAMUN AND RAMESSES III AND THEIR RELATIVES.
9) I hope this helps, let me know if you have any further questions. HE IS INVITING YOU TO ASK MORE SPECIFIC QUESTIONS SUCH AS: “ARE THE INDIVIDUALS THAT YOU ANALYSED IN YOUR STUDY RELATED TO SUB SAHARANS AFRICANS?” – I AM SURE HIS ANSWER WILL BE “YES”.
In conclusion, I would ask you a question: if all the Pharaohs available to be analysed were related to the black people, why did the ancient Egyptians (who are not native Africans according to you) choose them, instead of choosing people related to them (other caucasians maybe?)
So, you can parse the author’s work more successfully than the author? Nice.
I want texts and art (the former is preferred, as the latter by itself tells me nothing — texts provide the context for the art).
Again, these are not unreasonable requests. i don’t care what the answer is. My objection is that it’s absurd to draw conclusions (a) in the absence of data, and (b) contrary to known data. So I’m looking for data.
That isn’t rocket science. It’s a simple, straightforward request.
And one logic check: “related” does not mean “the same race.”
they’re unable to prove their claims. the fact they are so sure despite a lack of evidence is quite telling.
Do you mean artwork like these showing Egyptians exactly of the same race as ‘Nehesu’ Kushites?
This one is the ‘table of nations’ painting found in Rameses III temple.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/6b/17/76/6b1776795780cc437821c6cd093db531.jpg
here is another one;
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/13/11/79/13117968ae1be89962eb99940909a2b6.jpg
here is another one
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/6f/51/4b/6f514b71d03ed2c66d31ef14e4a23fb9.jpg
This ones are from the tomb of Seti 1
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/9e/b1/d6/9eb1d632a88ba63c22b8acfd2c6d1fc1.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/b7/93/bf/b793bf942dcaa9651bd91ce9f5174537.jpg
Notice these are all actual wall paintings from Egyptian tombs and not recent paintings done by European artists e.g the fake “table of nations painting” on Eurocentric wikipedia.
Ancient Egyptians always depicted Syrians and eastern Semites lighter than them.Like in this painting showing Shasu of syrr(Syrians).
escorted by Egyptians.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/81/e3/7b/81e37b5c1ac9da2decf70017f0175496.jpg
Everybody knows mediterenean Southern Europeans are darker than Northern Europeans, likewise the so called “middle Eastern people” are darker than modern Mediterranean southern Europeans.
Ancient Egyptians always depicted themselves darker than Asiatic.
This painting below show pharaoh Ramasses II crashing white invaders.my favorite painting.
Notice the difference in skin color.
http://legacy-cdn-assets.answersingenesis.org/assets/images/articles/utp/chap28/chariot.jpg
ALL these are Egyptian paintings showing Egyptians similar to other black Africans.
Michael, most Egyptians wall paintings you see today are not in their original stste,they have been repainted, faded to fit Eurocentric fantasy
http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Egypt_Pre_historic.htm
Where are the texts that give these paintings the explanations you do? Show us the translations to go with these.
Red and “not red” (tanned” has nothing to do with “we’re all Negroid; no difference between us native Egyptians and the Nubians.” I want the Egyptians to say this. Their word on this issue is important. That’s not an unreasonable request since we’re talking about what they thought.
Even the painting on Eurocentric Wikipedia the Egyptian is still black by American standards. He is not that much lighter than the Nubian and his hair is braided as well.
I’m referring to the famous table of nations painting of course. The one that Eurocentrists use. The Egytptian in that painting is black by American standards. He’s darker than Obama. With nappier hair. He’s lighter than the Nubian but I’ve never met a black man that was that was that black ever.
You want Ancient Egyptian texts where they self identify as NEGROID???
Should we look for other Africans from that period who self identify as African American too?
Did the concept of a NEGRO even exist for them? We can’t possibly give you an AE text where they say “I am a Negro”
There is a ton of art that shows they possessed the same physical characteristics that can be observed throughout Africa. Further… There are black people in present day Egypt who will tell you that Ancient Egyptians were black.
I personally have had this discussion many times with actual Egyptian people… and they have always expressed a belief that AE were black and that present day Egyptians are mixed ppl.
You want Ancient Egyptian texts where they self identify as NEGROID???
Should we look for other Africans from that period who self identify as African American too?
Did the concept of a NEGRO even exist for them? We can’t possibly give you an AE text where they say “I am a Negro”
There is a ton of art that shows they possessed the same physical characteristics that can be observed throughout Africa. Further… There are black people in present day Egypt who will tell you that Ancient Egyptians were black.
I personally have had this discussion many times with actual Egyptian people… and they have always expressed a belief that AE were black and that present day Egyptians are mixed ppl.
I can’t make it any simpler (and it’s really hard to believe anyone cares): How about a text from ancient Egypt where an Egyptian writer insists or states that there was no difference in skin color between the Libyans or Cushites and non-Libyan, non-Cushite Egyptians?
What a pointless thing to care so much about. How is anyone’s life made better or worse by the outcome of this question? Good grief.
Yeah I don’t think they have that. Or it doesn’t exist. Other than their writing on their origins which states they comes from the source of the Nile. You can extrapolate that to mean they are Central African I suppose.
Do you know the Kushite dynasty.The 25th dynasty painted themselves “red” like ancient Egyptians? Everybody knows the 25,th dynasty came from Napata KUSH.Notice I don’t use the term ‘Nubians’ since ancient Egyptians never used them.
Actually ancient Egyptians never painted themselves Red but dark brown, mixing red ocre paint with black charcoal paint mixed with fat.The modern red paintings are faded ones.But originals still exist.
If they were not black why would they refer to PUNT in their texts as the land of the gods?even taking pilgrimage to PUNT many times?PUNT location is disputed but it is either ‘African greatlakes region or Horn Africa Eritrea. Both places historically inhabited by black people.
Michael show me evidence where ancient Egyptians said they were not black Africans in their texts.
I thought you had training in egyptology Michael. Can’t you read the texts from the paintings. Isn’t it obvious from the first painting?
I rest my case,you have not provided any evidence to the contrary, or any peer reviewed citations disputing my claims.Or any genetic information showing ancient Egyptians were anything but black Africans. Or archeological evidence showing the Civilization was anything but ‘African.Or anthropological evidence stating that the culture and religion of ancient Egyptians was anything but ‘African.
You may call yourself a biblical scholar,but you are just another Eurocentric Pseudo historical racist lier.
The evidence is that the Egyptians identified the Nubians as Nubian, and the Kushites as Kushites (not Egyptians.
Still waiting for the texts. And you’re filtered now. Your desperation speaks volumes as to where your head is at.
Incidentally, black people live in the US, my state, and my town. But not everyone who lives in those places is the same race. So much for your logic.
All humans have human DNA; but there are variations in the human genome. Features that compel / allow classification of humans into races are based on those variations. Hence being black is not about geography.
But I think the larger point is that the names in Gen 10 are not all people groups — some refer to places.
But I don’t actually remember the whole context for the question, and I’m not going to go back and re-read the whole thing.
Why did you remove my post about Ramses III being E1b1a? Are you that upset about it? Sad to see a sorry Eurocentric, Synagogue of Satan Jew stoop to such low levels. BUT I SUPPOSE IT’S ALL I SHOULD’VE EXPECTED! You can remove this one if you like but all the matters to me is that you see it and know what you are.
The genetic information was answered by one of the writers who did the genetics research — who doesn’t agree with the way his research was being used by you and/or others. When a geneticist doesn’t agree with such an assessment, that wins the argument. I’m not going to keep posting a point that’s been refuted. It’s sort of pointless.
Diodorus of Sicily writes:
{quote} The Ethiopians say that the Egyptians are one of their colonies which was brought into Egypt by Osiris. They even allege that this country was originally under water, but that the Nile, dragging much mud as it flowed from Ethiopia, had finally filled it in and made it a part of the continent. … They add that from them, as from their authors and ancestors, the Egyptians get most of their laws. It is from them that the Egyptians have learned to honor
{p. 2} kings as gods and bury them with such pomp; sculpture and writing were invented by the Ethiopians. The Ethiopians cite evidence that they are more ancient than the Egyptians, but it is useless to report that here. {endquote} {endnote 5: Histoire universelle, translated by Abbe Terrasson. Paris, 1758, Bk. 3 p. 341.}
If the Egyptians and Ethiopians were not of the same race, Diodorus would have emphasized the impossibility of considering the former as a colony (i.e., a fraction) of the latter and the impossibility of viewing them as forebears of the Egyptians
Generally, classical sources are either centuries or *millennia* behind the primary sources from ancient Egypt. They are often wrong. Herodotus is the most picked-on example, but Censorinus, for example, wrote a lot about Egypt but was never there. It’s hearsay (which obviously isn’t always or even mostly accurate).
But your own logic doesn’t work. Two peoples can easily share the same space and traditions and not be ethnically related. When the Cherokee nation adopted laws of western European democracy or the idea of writing did their racial distinction go away? Of course not.
My logic doesn’t work ? Save your condescension for your family please. diodurus has nothing to do with the guy you picked just for the purpose of invalidating diodurus ! Funny the ancient are only chosen to be wrong and advertised as such only when we talk about the race of the so called Egyptians – no wonder native Americans called y’all the supreme in arrogance and lies. ( trickster) …. Well your logic is the one that doesn’t work and the so called racist scholars That are hell bent on playing this game – other ancients have said what diodurus has said ( even though the north Egypt got lighter just like the Australian aborigines are today not one is the original black but they are still notice and looked on as blacks even though they are beige now as too were the northern Egyptians after ten thousand yrs)
The Jews said the same Egypt was Called mizraim and mizraim came from Ham !! So called cursed black by Noah ( it was really Canaan who was cursed). Were there is much smoke saying the same thing there must be ” fire” No matter what you descendants of Western Europe try to destroy ( as usual) confuse and rewrite through your love of ” gaslighting people” Aida was always played in Black face in Italy and elsewhere in the past. More false logic- One white guy told a bunch of Black students that there were no black kings of Egypt because kingship was started by Ptolemy when he ruled Egypt !! ( kmt is an weak old women at the time the Greeks came in ) The lies s and twists and confusion you PEOPLE ideological and spiritual descendants of the energy of Loki, try to shove down people’s throats is utterly amazing to put it mildly.
That someone’s logic doesn’t work isn’t condescension. It’s just pointing out a counter-factual that invalidates the conclusion. This is the way grown-ups argue points.
The point wasn’t that Censorinus has “something to do” with Diodorus — it’s that classical writers living way after the fact are often quite incorrect in their information. That’s readily demonstrable. If you can’t deal with that, or that the logic in fact is easily assailable, then I can’t help you.
I don’t know. In the artwork I’ve seen they look like people from the African continent and not like Elizabeth Taylor.