Just wanted to sign off on this topic. I really can’t muster any more interest in it. Changed my mind on sharing any personal thoughts, other than to say that I believe the reason that many positions can appear coherent is that they are all correct in certain respects. I believe that both literal (earthly) and “more than literal” (“spiritual”) fulfillment of prophecy were and are in operation — that is, things will get played out on earth and in heaven (as above, so below) in tandem with each other and simultaneously. Think about it – why can’t that be the case (not in every detail, but almost). It is the position that has the greatest explanatory power and requires the least amount of presuppositional cheating.
It was refreshing to be looking at Genesis today … that’s what’s up next.
Ourrahh!
Dude, you’re killing me here. I was looking forward to you giving your view and your little teaser here regarding the heaven and earth parallel made me all the more anxious to here what you think. Can I urge you to reconsider?
you can email me with a question if you like.
Ditto to what Greg said!!!!!!!
I feel like you’ve left me hanging. Admittedly, I haven’t commented hardly at all, but I’m subscribed to your blog feed and everytime you post on this topic, I’m RIGHT there reading and trying to digest!
C’mon Mike – please can’t you lay out your understanding – at least in a somewhat simplified format? I’m willing to consider everything you’ve posted. Heck, Yah has ALREADY undone much false teaching that I held for years. I’ve learned so much reading your Divine Council paper – along with the Scriptures….and I really felt He led me to find your website a couple of years ago. In fact, The Ruach urged me to delete MANY bookmarks I had but not yours. So please, brother – pray about it and reconsider, won’t you?
For the record:
I’m NOT pre-trib.
I tend to lean toward believing that Yeshua will physically return and rule and reign here with His Priests and Kings for a Millenium. HOW it comes about, I’m not 100% sure. I’m totally open to the leading of the Ruach to show me what He wants to show me. Otherwise, I just trust Him to prepare me for whatever is coming.
I just want to be with Yeshua in His Kingdom – however that manifests.
ditto to Greg – you can email a question if you like.
Mike:
So this is how you decide to end your study of the Apocalypse. Now we will never know the End. “The horror, the horror” of having to rely on the inimitable Hal Lyndsey, our shape shifitng prophecy guru. Have we been Left Behind in a post-Apocalyptic state only Kevin Costner aka The Postman truly understands? I was really hoping to find out if Obama was indeed the antichrist.
Oh well onward and upward to see the creative gaps in translation from Hebrew to English.
LOL
see you at lunch at some point!
Mike,
I must agree with the aforementioned desire to have you articulate your most basic eschatological perspectives that stick with fundamental biblical data (allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture) to illustrate how your approach with limited presuppositions as humanly possible can facilitate an understanding that can be apprehended by most Christians with such a high-regard for Scripture.
For example, as I read the comments on your previous post Part 15 (http://michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/2010/08/why-an-obsession-with-eschatology-is-a-waste-of-time-part-15/), I went to the article by Neall (http://www.auss.info/auss_publication_file.php?pub_id=1101&journal=1&type=pdf) and immediately noted a common presupposition that is brought to the text of Revelation on page 188 of this article (page 4 on PDF format); that Revelation 12:2-4 portrays the primeval downfall of Satan. This presupposition as manifested in this article which is further supported by a sequential perspective of the chapters in Revelation (e.g. This action that was prior to his attack on the woman ). I used to hold to this view; that this passage (Rev. 12:2-4) alluded to Satans fall prior to the tempting of Adam and Eve in Eden; however, you clearly illustrated that, based on the biblical text itself, this could not be the case! You helped me look at the Naked Bible and the text itself from a Redemptive Historical view; which is Biblical Theology. I would like to reference a written correspondence (see below) that we shared in which you helpfully guided me through an approach that stuck with the biblical text. I share this so that it may help others see what youre striving at, and it is why I think a Naked Bible outline of basic eschatology would serve others in helping us stick with the text as much as is humanly possible.
Wilson: In Ezekiel 28:1-19 and Isaiah 14:1-22 “God taunts and pronounces judgment on the kings of Tyre and Babylon, respectively. To drive home that these kings deserve judgment, the inspired prophet compares them to the supernatural being whose contemptuous pride resulted in a failed coup against God” (p. 57 of The Myth that is True). Page 63 further illustrates, regarding these passages from Ezekiel and Isaiah, that Helel was cast down to erets and, are thus, related to the Genesis 3 curse on ha nachash. Lastly, on page 74, you discuss the problem with placing Helel’s fall, with his demons, prior to his deception of Eve in the Garden due to an overextension of biblical evidence. Clearly Revelation 12 speaks of Helel’s (Satan’s) fall, with his demons, as being the result of the incarnation and exaltation of Yahweh’s eternal vice-regent, the Son, the Seed, in fulfillment of the Genesis 3 promise.
Heiser: Though this is often taught, Rev. 12 does not describe the point at which the devil and his angels “fell” into the condition of being evil. The fact that they are at war against Michael and other angels means they were ALREADY evil. The passage marks the point at which the devil and those who serve him were expelled from entering God’s presence – something the NT links to the beginning of Jesus’ ministry as I point out in this chapter (p. 74 of my file copy).
Wilson: My question then is, what “fall” is being depicted of Helel in Ezekiel and Isaiah?
Heiser: The context here is clearly set in Eden (as opposed to Rev 12 and what Luke says in Luke 10:18) and so I believe these chapters describe the pride of Helel that led to him becoming disloyal to Yahweh (shown by tempting Eve so that she and Adam would be destroyed as God’s select imagers on earth).
Wilson: Are there two types of “falls” or punishments meted out to Helel and his follower angels; one after the failed Garden coup
Heiser: There are no other angels mentioned in Genesis 3 in conjunction with what happens to Adam and Eve. I’m not sure why you are putting more angels into the story – ? The nachash is cursed (see my explanation of the spiritual / metaphorical punishment he receives). IF the nachash is the satan (the adversary) of Job 1-2, then we have evidence there that this rebel could still come into God’s presence. I think there is a good circumstantial case to be that is the case. In the context of the divine council, the office of “satan” (adversary) involved “accusing” people of disobedience to God – something that the devil is said to do in the NT. That creates a theological link, and so it may imply that the nachash (later identified as the devil or God’s “arch” adversary) could go into God’s presence when he wanted to, or when permitted to by God, or when God tasked him with something (he is still on God’s leash, though disloyal). We just aren’t told much with greater clarity. At any rate, he is barred at the beginning of Jesus’ ministry. It is as if to say God isn’t interested in hearing his reports any longer – redemption is drawing nigh, and his reports serve no purpose any longer. God is going to wipe the slate clean and declare those who follow him righteous – and who can come between God and his elect? I take this not really as a punishment on the devil, but an act of dismissal, akin to flicking a bug off your arm. Essentially it’s “get lost.”
Wilson: and another at the first advent of the Christ? Or, am I trying to place an historical timeline on something that transcends created time within the spiritual realm (kairos)? Since both (Ezekiel 28/Isaiah 14 & Revelation 12) involve an expulsion from heaven to earth, there would appear to be some type of chronological understanding. All “falls” fit the curse of Genesis 3.
Heiser: The best I can do here is wing a description again. “Earth” of course is the place where the netherworld was conceived to have been put (“under the earth” / under the terra firma we walk on). This place, though, isn’t subject to physical earthly laws – this is the language of cosmic geography. This is another reason why we are better off seeing the curse of the nachash as involving word play, and as affecting him in a spiritual (cosmic) sense, as opposed to dealing with a literal snake. He wanted to lord over (or destroy) the human imagers of earth, but he is placed beneath them – beneath every created beast, in fact (where the netherworld was thought to be). But the nachash isn’t a snake that lives in the center of the earth – that isn’t the point. The point is that there is a place for him (also called erets) that is connected to the earth (erets) he wanted to rule, but which he cannot have. Yes, he disrupted God’s plan for a divine domain on earth with humans, but God took action to reverse what was done – the nachash / devil will not own the earth and rule it – Yahweh will, with his elect – and the key to this was the incarnation and work of Christ.
Heiser (on another occasion but related to the same topic): Generally, I don’t like ANY of the systems of eschatology. I believe that prophecy operates on BOTH “spiritual” (more than literal) and literal trajectories at the same time (there will be both spiritual and literal fulfillments simultaneously in my view – as in heaven, so on earth idea applied to eschatology). I see no need to adopt any one system.
Again, I only offer this up at this time to illustrate how you, Mike, have helped me let go of many of my presuppositions that contributed to a set eschatological system. As a result, through greater fidelity to the biblical text within its redemptive-historical setting, you have, by the grace of God, enabled me to focus on the fundamental Gospel of Christs Person and work which is essential for salvation and its working out to the End of Time. This doesnt mean we always agree on lesser issues as presented in Scripture, but we sure know that the key was the incarnation and work of Christ.
Thanks for your service and this controversial, yet important, post for those who seek to derive their theology from the Naked Bible as opposed from presuppositions to which we are predisposed because of our fallenness (our desire to determine that which is right or wrong apart from the authoritative Word of God).
I’ll explain in an email if anyone wants to know. I’d rather have you all do your own thinking (and there’s more in what I said than meets the eye). All the above is me – I see no need to throw my loyalty to one system. I think they are all right and all wrong since I see prophecy working out on BOTH the earthly and spiritual planes.
Probably best not to put a position down as it could change in the future and people could through it back in your face. Still I’m with the others ….disappointed.
MSH,
If you tell people what you believe, you might be founding the new MSH church of the right/middle/left. I wonder if you know how much power you now have at your fingertips.
Power doesn’t interest me (though I have to confess I doubt that I have much anyway).
MSH;
AARRGGH your killing me!
I would add my voice to the chorus of whines and cries asking you to finish. I guess Im just going to have to try and believe everything the left behind books say, and whatever Joel Osteen says each week.
Where’s face guy? I’ll bet he’s got something good to say…
email
MSH church haha..
my thoughts exactly
Lol…very deep
Letdown? Yes. Surprise? No.
At the beginning of this discussion MSH warned that it will be a humbling experience.
I think his conclusion and all comments prove that no one is really satisfied with all the explanations out there.
Everything will play out according to Gods supreme and ultimate will.
MSH shows that he has no definite answers and really does not much care that he doesnt.
He is also not afraid to admit that he doesnt know. And that is quite admirable and rather rare (especially in denominational or any other church groups) hence the suggestion for MSH church?
There is one comforting thought left: 1Pe 1:12 even angels desire to know some things.
And Lucifer (Satan, Dragon, Devil, the prince of this world) wouldve done everything in his power to prevent Christs crucifixion, as that caused his ultimate defeat.
Studying eschatology can be quite enjoyable we just need to forget everything we think we know and start with a clean slate.
MSH wisely advised that we ourselves can be the best of all lexicons
There are a couple of ground rules worth keeping in mind: scripture should be the first and final authority, and guidance of the Holy Spirit is absolutely essential
In addition we should keep in mind that the centre stage is always the Middle East and that Jerusalem remains the apple of Gods eye.
God is not finished with Israel and there is more to Israel than just the small Jewish state.
Right now the church is an heir of God not yet inheritor. And Christ is not yet wearing the ruling crown Gods kingdom on earth is not yet established.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, , crowned with glory and honour; (word for crowned is stephanos not diadema)
Rev 3:21- To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
It is the dragon that wears the ruling crown for now.
(Sure enough Christ is already qualified to rule but the time is not yet. It was the same with David when he was anointed to be king)
Once upon a time Ive done a study of mystery Babylon the Great based solely on the Bible (both OT and NT) quite enlightening.
OBSESSION with eschatology NO! Studying with an open mind YES!
@Janina: right!
Mike, I was just wondering before this ending last too long – what is your take on Jer.30 (Jacob’s Touble) refering to? Any good articles to boot?
The answer is in Jeremiah 30 (the verses leading up to verse 7). The “time of Jacob’s trouble” = the Babylonian captivity. But God tells the people that this trouble will not be permanent — they will return.
I know this phrase gets applied to the tribulation as though it were far future, but the context of Jer 30 pretty clearly says otherwise.
Yeah, that is what I got out of it but was not sure if there were some Hebrew underlinings – Thanks.
I see a lot of interesting posts here. I have bookmarked for future reference.
thanks!