Stone Masonry and Machu Picchu
I recently received and email challenging me to produce a coherent explanation of the architecture and stonework of Machu Picchu and other megalithic sites. The questioner wanted to know how anyone else other than aliens could have produced these sites. My initial response was simply to tell him the basics-that these civilizations had left us truly discernible clues as to how the work was done. That was kind of lazy of me (hey, I was on the road). Now that I’m back, I’ve decided the topic would make a good re-entry into PaleoBabble for me and readers.
Sorry, it isn’t aliens. I’m also sorry that I don’t have anything sexier than studies by geologists, anthropologists, and engineers to offer. Data is boring, I know. Oh, well. At any rate, it’s worth noting that many people like my emailer have basically not read anything in the scientific literature about these sites. Instead, they come armed with books by Zecharia Sitchin, or Erich von Daniken, or the latest HBO special propping up the ancient alien hypothesis. There viewers and readers are told how impossible it is to get stones lined up adjacently to each other so closely that a playing card can’t go between them. Or that the stones came from quarries hundreds of miles away. Both of these ideas are inaccurate and, frankly, disparaging to the Inca.
Here are a few articles on the Inca that deal with Machu Picchu and other sites. I trust they will be interesting and informative.
Jean Pierre Protzen, “Who Taught the Inca Stonemasons Their Skills? A Comparison of Tiahuanaco and Inca Cut-Stone Masonry,” The Journal of the Society of Architectural Historians, Vol. 56, No. 2 (Jun., 1997), pp. 146-167.
Jean Pierre Protzen, “Inca Quarrying and Stone Cutting,” The Journal of the Society of Architectural Historians, Vol. 44, No. 2 (May, 1985), pp. 161-182
Susan A. Niles, “Niched Walls in Inca Design,” The Journal of the Society of Architectural Historians, Vol. 46, No. 3 (Sep., 1987), pp. 277-285
One note of warning on these articles. They are not light reading. This is real scholarship, not the fluff produced by Sitchin, von Daniken, etc.
Thanks, Mike. Do you know of any other civilizations using roughly the same joining methods in stone architecture around the same time? As far as I know, the methods used by the builders of Tiahuanaco and the later (slightly different) methods of the Incans are unique — but “as far as I know” isn’t exactly measured in nautical miles in my case.
NM the previous question…I’d somehow missed the first paragraph of “Inca Quarrying and Stone Cutting”.
Anyway, maybe you should send that article to the History Channel with a box of chocolates and flowers. I’m sure they’d appreciate the following paragraph after the assertion of one of their consulted ‘experts’ that, “Only diamond is hard enough to cut the type of stones [andesite] found at Tiahuanaco.”
“All types of hammerstones have a hardness of at least 5.5 on Mohs’ scale. This is comparable to the hardness of the andesite on which the hammers were used, but the hammers are tougher than andesite, which, due to differential cooling during its formation, is easily shattered on impact.”
@ishcairn: I don’t know specifically; not my expertise
@ishcairn: what a wonderful suggestion … wouldn’t that be a hoot!
The scientist Joseph DAVIDOVITS has a very interesting technical explanation on the use of geopolymers. He has specifically written about geopolymers as the technology used to construct stone objects in in the pre-incan Huanka civilization. See http://www.geopolymer.org/library/archaeological-papers/c-making-cements-with-plant-extracts
His theory about geopolymers used in the construction of the pyramids is at least as spectucular, though very believable from a technological point of view.
@paulus: Yes, it is interesting. I use one of his YouTube videos in an ancient Egypt class I teach.
Have you ever been to South America to see or study firsthand any of these sites before you make your conclusions, it doesn’t appear so. I’ve been there myself, to Macchu Pichu, Tihuanaco and others. I direct your attention to Sacsayhuaman Archaeological park and defy you or ANY scholar to go there and see for yourself then try to explain the construction of this cyclopean site as having been built by a prehistoric human civilization before the invention of the wheel, The blocks exceed several hundred tons each, mirroring in scope the first levels of the likewise enigmatic Baalbek in Lebanon. Modern engineering would be hard pressed to duplicate anything in this category even with the useage of today’s big derreks and cranes. Multiple conjoining limestone blocks there have been fused together with a technology that closely resembles the effects of what modern scientists know as the electron beam…in ancient times!
I meant to denote a question mark after the word “conclusions” and the correct spelling is Machu Picchu, however I consider the site to be the access-way of Tampu Tocco rather than Hiram Bingham’s crown jewel citaldel anyway.
That was a typographical error, I mean to write “citadel” also your link from the ancient astronauts page contains a grammatical error itself, it says “Did aliens built Machu Picchu?”
I think you were going for ‘Did aliens BUILD Machu Picchu?” weren’t you? But you are the language scholar, Mr.Heiser.
@Ringozingo: no, but the people who do the archaeological work have. Why should I visit the site as a tourist when I can read the scholarship of the arcaheologists and engineers who publish their work? Doesn’t seem too logical. And you’re really behind on the engineering part. There’s nothing to lifting these blocks that moderns haven’t duplicated – go to http://www.theforgottentechnology.com and get the education. It’s $5 for this guy’s DVD — money well spent. He lifts and moves a 20,000 block by himself and makes it comically simple. The DVD has other engineering “tricks” on it as well.
@Ringozingo: Yes, once you get a PhD that immunizes you from typos. I can also fly now. Get real. But thanks for spotting it!
@Ringozingo: which page; can’t find it.
@Ringozingo: ah – found it now.
I just got done reading the article by Jean-Pierre Protzen and Stella Nair and I am convinced that someone of a superior race created the buidlings at Tiahuanaco. First who are the the Tiahuanacos? Their masonary techniques are different from the Incas per conclusion drawn by the authors. As the authors said ( for example) the techniques used to “drill” the holes, the planar finishing is unknown. The tools the Tiahuanaco used us “unknown and have yet to be discovered”.
The Tiahuanaco used a “hoisting grip” in some of their stones? How do they drill holes like that?
In conclusion, we don’t who the builders of the pumapunka are or what technologies they used.
What exactly is a superior race? Sounds scary to me. As a layman with just a passing fancy in megalith technology, I too find Dr. Davidovits work in geopolymers extremely facinating and exciting. Using plant extracts and locally available materials to create stone edifices makes a lot of sense and as Dr. Heiser pointed out, moving a huge block, oblisk etc CAN be done with a fraction of the effort we would conventionally think to use. (That guys site is great). The credence given to ancient astronauts et al, instead of the resourcefulness and ingenuity of pre-documented, historical man, seems like the lazy way to come up with answers instead of true research and discovery. Seems that ancient cultures can teach us a thing or two about problem solving.
The only mystery about the Chinese wall is “What were they thinking?”. Not so with Peruvian walls! It is intimidating to the ego to be confronted with a seemingly unsolvable mystery. So it reacts with some explanation justified by someone else’s scholarly documentation based on exhaustive research that has covered all possible resources that can be imagined by parochial mentality imagining itself to be capable of fathoming anything that confronts it. What unbelievable arrogance!!!! These are the people that KNOW whether or not we are alone in the universe or whether or not “aliens” could be “superior” to us. The construction methods of the Peruvian walls, the pyramids, etc. are not understood by science and any amount of explaining is utterly ludicrous. Anyone who accepts their word is in their scientifically approved lala land. This Peruvian mystery is a rare sensory experience to enrich our awareness. To be in the presence of these monuments is to be confronted (by those beyond egoic disempowerment) with a realization that here is something beyond our comprehension and impossible to rationalize with “Oh, yeah. One of those old walls chiseled out by natives.”
The masses are comming of age to appreciate this statement by Morpheus: “We are trained in this world to accept only what is rational and logical. Have you ever wondered why?”
“The construction methods of the Peruvian walls, the pyramids, etc. are not understood by science and any amount of explaining is utterly ludicrous”
But what if they were? Are geopolymers out of the question because of the “feelings” derived from these monuments or because a scientific comparison and working models have excluded this hypothesis? I’d rather see that questions are asked and research done, even if it leads to some spiritual end than to blindly say “we’ll never know” and your research is ludicrous. Not ready to drink that kool-aide yet.
I think it’s just a perpetuation of Fantasy Channel level “documentation” to say science is completely at a loss to explain how these structures were built. I don’t think every facet can be explained entirely, but the basics are understood. It’s amazing how much good published material there is on ancient engineering that people like Hancock and other researchers seem completely unaware of.
@ Mike Heiser
Please note we are not only dealing with the weight of these huge stones, but also with the uncredible fine surface treatment of these stones. How is this explicable?
According to the book of Enoch some “fallen angels” resp. sons of God or “watchers” left their heavenly abode and fell from heaven to earth and instructed mankind in many things. Why do you not believe that the watchers (or men with help of these watchers) could have built these huge buildings? This fine finish of the surface of these huge stones of -for instance- puma punku is not explicable. They look like cut by a laser beam. When asked by the Spaniards if the Incas had been the builders of puma punku, the Indians answered: “Oh no, these buildings are much older than all buildings of the Incas. This place had already been left when we arrived but it was built IN ONE NIGHT.”
this is probably the easiest part. Answer: The same one would smooth stone by hand today — chiseling and polishing. There are columns in Egypt at Karnak, for example, of stone in every stage of cutting and polishing. You don’t need angels for what stonemasons have been doing for centuries, even millennia.
….I forgot to mention that this information had been passed through alle generations of the native Indians from one generation to the next generation. Therefore the generation of the Indians who experienced the conquest of the Inca empire were able to give disclosure to the Spaniards.
Sorry I’m a little late to the party here. Anyway, the insistence that aliens must have assisted humans in building ancient structures is rather akin to saying that aliens must have assisted humans in landing on the moon. Ancient technologies, “primitive” though they may be compared with modern technologies, were apparently capable of engineering “miracles.” No doubt that five thousand years hence the “primitive” 20th-century technology that took us to the moon will be regarded as the stuff of neanderthals (cf. catapulting into space in a tin can???). Or if you don’t care for that analogy, then how about this… Not long ago I read a news story recounting the discovery of an octopus using coconuts as tools. Purportedly this is the first time an invertebrate has been observed demonstrating the advanced act of tool use (something long believed only higher animals [primates] were capable of). Applying the same “alien helpmate” logic to the octupus scenario, one is forced to concede that a “superior race” must be communicating with octopi in order to pass along advanced knowledge. I mean, everyone knows that those invertebrates couldn’t think this stuff up on their own. Like Ringozingo (above), we can say, “Have you ever seen an octopus firsthand and seen how dumb it is?” Ergo, aliens. Or Moonladi (above): “We don’t know how the octopus learned how to do this.” Ergo, aliens. Or Antonio (above): “The Incas told us the octopus learned it in one night.” Ergo, aliens. Believing that aliens helped early humans build these structures is fine in and of itself, but proving such a theory still requires: a) evidence (not supposition); b) logic (not logical fallacies); c) technical knowledge/training (not soundbytes); and d) objectivity (not bias). So far I’m not seeing any of these crop up in the arguments against MSH.
Excellent material in your posts MSH. The quantity of pseudo/fringe speculation floating around the internet regarding these subjects is truly staggering. Thanks for writing this up (and for making it accessible among all the misinformation out there.)
As incredible and awe-inspiring as ancient architecture can be, there are many logical explanations as to their planning and creation. It is somewhat a disservice to these peoples of long ago to state or imply that these structures could not be achieved by means other than “alien” intervention. One must remember that the brains of these peoples were just as advanced as the ones in your heads now. The “hardware” of the human brain has been existant for tens of thousands of years. We continually upgrade the “software” of the brain through breakthroughs in newfound logic, technology, etc. Unfortunately for us, time has erased our knowledge of some of the ins and outs of their methodology. That is not to say these people could not have erected these monuments with anything but the use of their own homo sapien noggin.
Aliens may have built puma punku! They are prefectly cut. The meterial used are diorite!
Watch this video! I doubt you can explain it!
It’s easy to “perfectly cut” stone so the edges match. They weren’t doing this sort of thing with their eyes closed or without a means of measuring and symmetry.
Watch this video about puma punku. I doubrt you can explain it!
But that. Puma punku blocks are complacated puzzle, no humans could do that at that time. They must have been build extra terrestrials or something. Its at least 70,000 years old, humans are still in the stone age at that time!
what is so beyond human capability here? Be specific for our readers so the response will make sense.
Okay after reading the entire article I can see how simple human innovation can account for MOST of what lay at Tiahuanacon sites, but the one BIG problem I have with the article is the “Hoisting Grips” section.
Even if they somehow with extreme intelligence and diligence created a drill able to drill through the stone so precisely the angles of the “Hoisting Grip” simply seem impossible. I can not fathom anyway to drill such an elaborate and complexingly angled hole through stone. I’m not sure we today could create a drill able to not only fit down the initial vertical hole and drill at a horizontal right angle let alone ANOTHER right angle after-words. And the author seems to have forgotten or simple left out an explanation as to how this could be accomplished. Which in my mind leaves a big hole in the mystery cause without the capability to create such a “Hoisting Grip” hole, some of those stones may not have been able to be set in place.
Can anyone please explain this to me?
and @ Paranormal:
i’m not sure that Puma Punku dates to 70 thousand years ago but to 17 thousand years ago. Still quite a long time ago but nowheres near the date you stated
Does anyone consider the fact that aliens may not be so different from us ? And no offence but i find mr Mike Heiser trying to “illuminate” us mortals a bit to agresiv , saying things like “it’s not aliens” , all thru his entire article , open letter , etc . I figure that a phd doctor would try and convince someone of his beliefs rather than saing IT IS SO — go to PROOF .
Consider that maybe homosapiens are on other planets in our galaxy , consider us then , here on EARTH . We want space travel , so do they . Distance and time do not matter . We are not in the midle of nothing , the universe does not span form us , we just hava e random adres (planet) . If 400000 ears form now we colonize another planet (i think thats like 50 ears form now , but for the sake of hypothetis) and its FAR FAR away form earth … communications are going to be out of the question even if we are as evolved as anything (planetary rotations and other cosmical “stuff and happening”, the perfect clockwork universe ever changing ||BUT WITH CONSTANT CYCLES||) comms with earth would be at most scarse . So …. mad man finds himself there with some agenda and a broken spacecraft . Choise’s : ??
Figure out what you want but at one point you might realise that humans on earth now are a consequence of anothers chois. Given the burst in tech in just under 100.000 years (we are extremely short lived for our given genetical material that is something else to think about)
Did you consider there is no scientific proof aliens exist? I’d like to know one exists before considering how much alike we are.
Why can’t anyone explain the Hoisting Grip or drilled holes at Puma Punku?
please explain the “problem” as you see it.
There is no proof of aliens , i agree , but we exist in an infinite universe . So … we are , therefor others exist , similar but different to us . I find it very sad that people dont want to belive some universal truths until its too late . These stones are one unchallengeable proof of our stupidity , because lets face it we can not reproduce them . We can not begin to speculate as how they may have build them , back then times were very different . We are born and raised and thaught things that we later take for granted . Ones mid should be hes own . We know facts about a stone that were given to us from others , its like you trusting scholars and taking what they say (in a paper or whatever ) for granted .
Bottom line , this is not about aliens , we need to know our real history in order to evolve , AND WE NEED EVOLUTION . Al we do is war … and sadly thats our path to evolution.
In all that article i never seen the needed fact that we are on a planet civilized as to specs for the ecuation to be real so , the ecuation is real because it applyes to us . And on top of that no other scientist has proven the ecuation to be false .
No offense but are you speaking English?
Must be since you answered in English – what a brilliant comment on your part. How witty.
I say to those marvelous people who have vast imaginations, keep coming up with those unproven theories. It wasn’t long ago that most of the scientific minds of the world knew for an absolute fact that the earth was flat.
Not that old canard.
Care to name ONE ‘scientific mind’ that stated as fact that the Earth is flat?
Aristotle already demonstrated that the Earth is a sphere.
The idea wasn’t new at the time.
This is an old post, so I need you to put this in context.
I think you folks should try and build something you remind me of a architect right out of school with no building experience, it is not just the stone cutting, its the foundation. Good luck explaining that start dancing.
another genius. Why would I need to do that when others have? Others who HAVE building experience. Wow.
Pit scars and patterns of cup- or trough-like depressions are found on several roughly hewn and shaped stones at Tiahua- naco [Figure 20].22 Although we have yet to find the actual
hammerstones, the marks suggest that the Tiahuanacan stone- masons, to do the coarse work, used a technique quite similar to that of the Incas.23 But to obtain the smooth finishes, the perfectly planar faces, and exact right interior and exterior angles on the
finely dressed stones, they resorted to tech-niques unknown to the Incas and to us at this time.
Foundations: To assure the stability of their structures, the Incas, as a rule, built very careful foundations. Where condi-tions were favorable, cut stones were fitted directly to bedrock.
In other circumstances, builders dug trenches, some 50 to 80 centimeters deep, which
they filled with mortared fieldstones. In the top layers, fieldstones were replaced by cut stones to accommodate the walls to be set on top. Foundations were generally wider than the walls they supported in order to distribute the load.
We are not yet certain about any general principles the Tiahuanacans applied to their foundations. (160 JSAH / 56:2, JUNE 1997 )
At first I thought this was a great find, then I read the articles… looked for meaning in the explanations… my view — these are Architectural articles. What they divulge is plan, elevation, material of construction, and details with cross-sections.
The articles meander through the exercise, stating what is known and unknown about how the structures rose from foundation to steadfast, and locked stone edifices. I don’t need a PhD to recognize information piled higher and deeper.
The writer, Nair, was given rewards for her study, Chester Miller Fellowship (not shabby) and given a Tinker Travel grant, from CLAS, UC Berkeley. All looks good for the author’s future.
I have watched the History channel’s blurbs in total at least three times. While one media event does not an explanation make, neither does this article prove or disprove anything. What gets to me is that it seems all the mouths this debate is feeding — not one apparently has worked a full day his whole life.
Here is what you do to prove anything: get your hammer and go out and pound your concrete driveway. What you see is the answer. Even if your hammer has a diamond edged blade — a smooth cut it doesn’t always make.
What is proven is that this ancient stone cutter knew more about what he was doing, than any one on earth knows today about what they “are” doing.
There’s an “axe to grind” pun in here somewhere.
I must admit that your past analysis and research are undoubtely impressive.
There is no doubt that your reports are data driven. One of my first questions I have for you is what process did you use to validate your data? How do you obtain an MA & PHD in the Hebrew Bible & Ancient Semetic languages without being biased? The very foundation that you became “learned” contained skewed data, so how does that make you or any of us an expert? This is by no means a knock against your dedication or committment to research, but it is a question of data integrity.
You have used the research of others to dispell the research of others. Simply put.
Other than that, I am interested to know what you learned about the Dogon of Mali and the little man that built the Coral Castle located in Homestead, FL.
I haven’t had a chance to go through all of your material, so I apologize if you have already covered them in your past literature.
learning languages and having to put up with the dog-and-pony show we call graduate school doesn’t create bias. If anything, it makes you more irritable toward academia. All I ask is that, rather than stating an idea about XYZ without actual data, I’d prefer the data. PaleoBabbling is simply cluttered with poor thinking, such as confusing correlation with causation (“these two things appear to be related, so I believe one is behind the other”; uh …. no, that hasn’t been demonstrated). I’ve blogged about the Dogon already. On the Coral Castle, simple lever technology explains it (pictures of the little guy include tackle and pulley systems). I’d also recommend that you listen to the episode on the Coral Castle over at skeptoid.com.
Is the true question whether or not aliens or the ancients built the impressive sites?
What I would like to know is why did the ancients in any geographical location consistantly include pictures (not writings) of people from the sky?
first, how do you know they are people (as in carbon-based life forms that occupy time and space, have to eat to stay alive, have to reproduce to maintain their species, etc.? You don’t. And could you direct us to specific examples? My own answer is simple enough: ancient people believed in a divine population — a world of beings that were not human, but divine. They consistently describe the gods as living “up there” (or on high mountain peaks or the sea). Why? Because those places were not the realm of humans. The ocean and the sky and the mountain peaks were the worlds where men do not live; so that’s where the gods must live. It’s terribly simple.
Hmmm…correlation with causation…yes you are correct I observed alot of that in past blogs.
The answer from you that I was looking for in my first blog was what were the methods you and your team used to validate your data? As you already know, your deliverable is only as good as your input data. Humans have that natural ability to allow influence dictate their writings. I’m just curious to know if when collecting the data that you completed your research with an open mind versus a preconceived notion. Again, I haven’t read enough of your material to determine your stand on most of the topics you aim to disprove. You definitely overload the average reader with plenty of data but at the end of the day, it’s not clear of what your position is on the topic.
Now back to the Coral Castle. I have visited the castle a couple of times and even exercised the option for a tour guide. You are absolutely correct about Mr. Leedskalnin’s use of tackle and pulley systems, but what baffles me is that he was able to transport of all that coral from key West and build without ever being seen. Wally Wallington of Flint, Michigan is currently building a replica of Stone Henge which is indeed impressive, but believeable. I have never doubted that we were capable of building pyramids and other wonders of the world, but the way Mr. Leedskalnin did it really makes me very interested in the data. I checked out Skeptoid.com, but didn’t find anything about the castle.
First, I don’t have a “team”; it’s just me. Second, in the absence of proof for aliens, aliens cannot be used as an explanation for megalithic building. That is, the burden of proof to *defend* that hypothesis is on those who make it. It isn’t on me to prove the negative. Rather, I look for coherent explanations for things that are rooted in the reality we know and experience. When I come across articles like these that are based on factual data and reasonable ideas (i.e., the technology for which there is evidence is sufficient to explain the results) I don’t feel compelled to make up another one. What I ask of the ancient alien people is simple and straightforward: (1) give me evidence for aliens (don’t use what you are assuming as your evidence for the thing you need to prove); (2) show me evidence of alien contact; (3) show me evidence of knowledge transferal from alien to human; (4) show me that human technology cannot account for the item under discussion; (5) explain why there are no references (like in Egypt – and alien theorists miss this one entirely) to aliens (“gods”) building the pyramids or other megaliths (you’d think something as grand as that would get some literary mention). It’s as simple as all that.
My fault…..”People” was the wrong terminology to use. I keep forgetting that Noah Webster has the patent on the English language. Even though most do not realize that English is not a language, but is actually a dialect.
You are correct about it being simple that the ancients most likely considered higher places to be the realms of Gods……makes sense to me!!!!
Why the drawings of spaceships? That’s why I asked you about the Dogon Tribe because they had some very descriptive drawings of spaceships. Plus, they described in detail that their tribal deformities were direct results of the miscegenation w/ the reptilians that came down in those crafts. The Hopi Indians had many drawings that depicted crafts. What data is available to dis-prove the drawings? I’m open minded, so flood my genetic memory bank with all the data you’ve got!
Oh ok……..I guess I got it mixed up. I thought I had read somewhere that Paleobabble was a team of people that ran the site.
Your’e right…..it is simple “no evidence, no proof”. There is not a blogger that I have read so far that can dispute that method. I for one will be very happy when some real evidence finally shows up, so that humans can finally rest.
30 November 2010 at 10:59 AM.
Did you consider there is no scientific proof aliens exist? I’d like to know one exists before considering how much alike we are.”
I find it interesting that the author uses the words ‘scientific proof’ to argue a point as to the existence or non-existence of aliens, yet he believes that a person called Jesus existed who was the messiah or son of God (God being the creator of the universe), who was executed and then arose from the dead. (Amongst other miraculous occurrences associated with this biblical character.)
So you believe certain things with no scientific proof but not others?
you need to spend some time over at my UFO religions blog for this. The two are far from the same. Briefly, belief in God makes no claim that God is part of the natural world. ET by definition is part of the natural world (evolutionary forces out in space). ET is by nature material; God is not. Therefore, ET *is* subject to the scientific method – falsification and testable hypotheses having to do with the material world. God is not. Apples and Oranges. You need to be more informed about the nature of such arguments before making them.
“Yes, once you get a PhD that immunizes you from typos”
Wow, that’s all I really needed to read. Thank you and have a nice day. You are a complete ass.
If you don’t have any better rebuttal than criticizing my post because of typos, that is the response that is deserved.
We are mostly taught that history and human progress is linear like this tool was invented this time, or this was done by this group of people at this period in history using these tools, hence the classification of the ages (stone, bronze, etc). Personally, I think modern man or our time doesn’t give much credit to the ancient civilizations that existed before us, hundreds or even thousands of years ago. There might not be much evidence on how they lived before or what they know, and why do they have megalithic structures, but I think it is incorrect to think that we know more now than they know back then. Maybe we are just not giving them enough credit!
I guess now that there’s a lot more people having access to information easily via the Internet, some hypothesis and theories are getting more popular these days, and one of them is the ancient alien theories.
There are more people now that theorizes that aliens might have helped them. It is not yet certain how these theories will stand on the test of time, but at the moment nobody knows for sure if aliens did visit the earth and co-mingled with the civilization back then. There are ancient texts from various ancient cultures, including the Bible, that clearly talks about extra-terrestrial beings or supernatural beings that have had contact with them before and taught them things. However, there’s not much incident like that now, maybe there are ET sightings, abductions or whatever, but most of them are speculations or hard to prove events that may or may not be true based on the evidence or testimony, and even if people write about it, I doubt that people will regard them now as historical fact, compared to what the ancient wrote before.
This is true for supernatural incidents as well. Take for example the miracles, apparition, sightings that are reported every now and then. That is why, I don’t follow the author’s logic that the alien and the divine or supernatural theory are different, they may be apples and oranges but they are still the same, they are fruits! 🙂
So much as the ancient or current alien theories must have factual or scientific evidence to be believable, so does the ancient or current divine/supernatural theory might as well have. At the end of the day, they are just both theories, it just happens that the ancient supernal/divine theories (in the form of religion) have more devout followers that have been believing that theory for hundreds or even thousands of years.
Briefly, belief in God makes no claim that God is part of the natural world. ET by definition is part of the natural world (evolutionary forces out in space). ET is by nature material; God is not. Therefore, ET *is* subject to the scientific method – falsification and testable hypotheses having to do with the material world. God is not.
>> If a being appears in the form of an apparition, could it be that they tele-ported or projected a vision of them to the material world? Maybe ETs or aliens are sophisticated enough to do this, at the moment quantum teleporting in our technology is already proven, what if they can do more than this?
And I disagree with what you said that G-d is not part of the material world, what about the part that G-d created the heaven and earth, and that he walked with Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden, and most specifically that Jesus, the son of G-d, was born out of a virgin, in flesh and blood, and lived and died as man and was then resurrected in physical form (new body) and went to Heaven? Isn’t that part of the material world?
Will the existence of a divine being such as the Judeo-Christian G-d really have to be an either or with the existence of other humanoid beings living on other planets?
God is not a material entity.
Seriously, are you saying that every religion with a claim of a Godly entity is invalid? And that there is NO possibility for an Alien theory in any of them? WOW! Its obvious that you are purposely being one sided (for either fame or money, which is whats wrong with America now adays) Either that or you are just reaaaaaally closed minded almost ignorant!. Hahaha! Like a lawyer trying to give good advise?! Haha! Please you’re a scam artist lying to people with other peoples work!
Ancient astronauts theorist are only “theorizing” that all these gods that religions claim to have met and seen as some point or another could have been aliens! Open your mind! If you want to be scientific then you have to theorize! NOT DEBUNK OR CRITIZE what you don’t know! Again if you want to be scientific, then look at what the scientist are saying now adays – “ scientist have found other earth like planets” and have also discovered that there maybe thousands more where that came from! Wow!! I really cant understand how close minded you are being, so again I have to come to the conclusion that you are being closed minded for beneficial purposes.
You’re like a little kid trying to fool an adult. You just got to try it!
How can you insult other peoples believes (not ours, but our ancestors) with your fake so call facts, like you have hard evidence. Haha! Even if our evidence isn’t factual like you say it isn’t, it doesn’t mean it cant be theorized. That’s why they are call theories! (imagination of what could be) Look at the city of Troy, thought to be mythical and now its real! The greeks have a cave and rock that they claimed belonged to zues. Who are we to tell them otherwise? All im saying is that your belief in this topic can not be genuine! You claim you want evidence but you yourself don’t even have any for your own beliefs. Evidence? Didn’t god say you don’t need evidence, just faith?
Your first sentence is incoherent (it makes no sense – I can’t recall saying this, but I also can’t claim to understand the sentence) — so I ignored the rest.
Actually it wasn’t a new body, it was Jesus old human body as his crucifixion wounds were there and his tomb was empty, but it was a rejuvenated/newish body as he was able to appear re-appear and levitate to heaven with that body, but is heaven then a material world if Jesus has a physical body?
how or why you used this post for this reply is lost on me. Your language about Jesus’ body wouldn’t be embrace my most orthodox New Testament scholars or theologians (it’s not a subject for this blog, but I thought you should know).
VERY interesting site Mr. Heiser.. I was literally born in the Andes and always fascinated by the Inca technology that can be observed in their ruins. While the idea of aliens coming down and helping them sounds interesting.. at this point I would resoundingly consider that an insult to the Inca people. They didnt have the wheel but they used logs to transport stones.. On some days you can observe stone workers in Cuzco duplicating the stone block cutting/polishing techniques for anyone to see. Logic, common sense and the scientific method are beautiful things.
wow – would love to see that.
so you tell me how they lifted stones 1000 tons or more. you ppl are stupid
if one man can move a 20,000 pound block and stand it upright himself (Wally Wallington – see theforgottentechnology.com) then those techniques for applied physics are scalable. Many men could do it using the same approaches. But you wouldn’t know that, apparently. I doubt if you’ve ever looked.
First tell us who lifted stones 1000 ton or more.
A 1000 ton stone has a volume of app. 400 cubic meter, e.g. 1 meter square by 400 meter long or e.g. 4 by 10 by 10 meter.
answer – people, like they did in the 18th and 19th centuries without the use of modern technology.
From the article at the above link:
On page 42 the author introduces what will become for him an analogous point of reference for his proposed solution to moving the trilithon of Baalbek:
“. . . 1,250,000 kilograms . . . is the weight of the great block of granite the Empress Catherine II of Russia (1762-1796) . . . carried to St. Petersburg (now Leningrad) to serve as a colossal base to the equestrian statue of Peter the Great. This is likely the largest stone ever moved by man, one and a half times the weight trilithon blocks [at Baalbek.]”
Again, I am asking some commenter “Anonymous” ‘… 1000 ton or more’
I am well aware who did so several thousand years ago, e.g. the Egyptians, but I always try to get the commenter in question to be precise before I debunk his/her claim 🙂
You seem to have some sort of problem with disqus, because on my screen it clearly says albertnielsen -> Anonymous (in this case, else whomever the commenter is)
So how did the LA Coliseum turn out EXACTLY oval in the early 20th century without spacecraft helping us from above?
Explain the Egyptians obsession with math and astronomy. How the pyramids are aligned with stars and constellations.
There’s nothing to explain (why would we be surprised at their fascination with this?) There are several posts on the blog on this (see under the “Pyramids” subject; archaeoastronomy is cool stuff; and it’s all naked eye work). Examples (read in this order):
The power of Jesus gives man the power of many men.
Faith in Him allows the dead to rise and the stones of many tons to be lifted!
Through the power of prayer alone I have gained wealth and power.
Jesus did all these things for me!
I’m not sure what this has to be with ancient engineering – ?
“But to obtain the smooth finishes, the
perfectly planar faces, and exact right interior and exterior
angles on the finely dressed stones, they resorted to techniques
unknown to the Incas and to us at this time”. – This is from the Jean Pierre Protzen, “Who Taught the Inca Stonemasons Their Skills? A Comparison of Tiahuanaco and Inca Cut-Stone Masonry”. An excerpt from your own resource.
That the finishing is not understood does not mean (a) that the quarrying and cutting is not understood (it is), or (b) that aliens were involved. Your post illustrates the non sequitur thinking that plagues the ancient astronaut idea. The technology is human, though not *completely* or “perfectly* understood.
I can imagine someone around 1600 bce: “It is obvious that evil spirits helped Rome construct great buildings such as the Coliseum and Pantheon using pagan mortar. Our God-fearing master Stonemasons cannot begin to replicate, nor would they wish to replicate, such Satanic construction.”…. 🙂
The finish is as equally important an aspect of the entire process as the quarrying and stone cutting is, when considering the age the Incas lived in (1500 B.C.). It speaks volumes of the knowledge they possessed. Knowledge that was nonequivalent to that period in time. Understanding the finish undoubtedly means comprehending it all. Allow me to educate you.
The quarry for the red sandstone was 10 Kilometers away from the city. The green Andesite stones that were used to create the most elaborate carvings and monoliths originate from the Copacabana peninsula, located across Lake Titicaca (90 Kilometers away). A remarkable distance considering that the largest of these stones weighs 131 metric tons.
Once successfully quarried, it is thought that the Incas laboriously “dragged” these stones or ferried them on mere reed boats to the construction site. The river cobbles which “could” have been used as “hammerstones”, Jean Pierre Protzen describes in his stonecutting “theory”, are hardly a match against the sheer magnitude of the Andesite stone. Hence his failed experimentation to replicate such a precise and geometrical procedure.
Simply put, modern machinery would have a very difficult time carrying the smallest stone. Let us not delve into the topic of how they went about tempering and placing these gargantuan monuments in position. Or even the actual purpose of their construction. Such conjecture is unnecessary, although i am more than willing to elaborate once you respond to my “non sequitur” reply.
What truly plagues the ancient astronaut theory is your inability to generate an original explanation concerning the subject. I must say, i am inclined to completely disagree with you my presumptuous friend.
Yes, they had some wonderful technique that we don’t know today. So how are aliens necessary? Please, tell us how alien involvement MUST be the case. Otherwise, to connect this to ancient astronauts is indeed a non sequitur — a conclusion that does not follow. (“We don’t know the ancient method for doing X, so X must have been done by aliens, or aliens taught humans to do X” — never mind the fact that, in our own day and age we have not been able to provide one piece of scientific evidence that aliens even exist).
“considering the age the Incas lived in (1500 B.C.)”
The Inca Empire was founded in Peru sometime in the early 13th century AD and was possibly the largest empire in the world in the early 1500s AD, ie. 3,000 years later than what you claim. It was destroyed by Spanish conquistadors.
Please do some simple research.
us, that note is from a commenter, not me. You might be the one who needs to read more carefully (unless this is directed at the commentar — I can’t actually tell because I use Disqus, which is a tool I basically hate, but have to use).
Yes, I am answering the commenter ‘Joan’, which is why I first quote the commenter’s comment “”considering the age … ” 🙂
Michael, i understand your viewpoint. But again, you are asking for an explanation without coming to your own. You want X to be something X is not. Evidence and truth comes in all shapes and forms. You must realize that. In this day and age, logic implies that if the universe is as infinite as it is presumed to be, then so are the possibilities. Perhaps the ancients did build every single monument, but not without guidance. You simply cannot ignore the primitive age they lived in. Is it mere coincidence that ALL civilizations speak of these entities and have provided an abundant source of scientific evidence that state and depict it? Their design structure somehow resembles one another even though they had no knowledge of the next or were on opposite sides of Planet Earth. Do not forget, this vast space we inhabit has more to it than meets the eye. It has physical and spiritual aspects therefore pragmatism only goes so far. Let us take this trip together. This is the last you will hear of me. Farewell Michael, my brother, my friend.
I’m just asking for a coherent argument that *requires* an alien explanation. It isn’t an unreasonable request.
I love your work! I have been on a quest for truth for many years now, and I must applaude your open letter responce notes! Once you’ve done enough research you will find people pulling at strings that are attached only to thier imagination. No grounding in the “real world” what-so-ever. If you were to ask me, the reason they have pushed (and continue to push) this “alien agenda” is to bring about a one-world government through the biggest false flag in human history… Aliens! But I digress. I think it’s funny that everyone always points at these monolithic structures, wonder how they were made, can’t come up with any good explanations, then proceed to say how primative they were… THAT gets me every time! So they were SO primative yet they made structures that baffle the mind… Yup, HAD to be aliens… “’cause them peoples were too dumb to have thought that up themselves!” – Sheeple
yep (“I can’t think of a way they could have done this; must be aliens”). That’s the fantasy channel series ALL DAY LONG.
my question is…why so much work to build pyramids? why the particular shape? what for? y did they consume so much of their time into this? and y the same shape different parts of the earth?
pyramids began as small structures built over mastabas (tombs). Two things dictated the shape once this architecture was decided upon: (1) The size – you needed slope for stability; (2) there seems to be some connection to the Egyptian myth of creation — about the “primeval mound” arising from the waters — the pyramid is a more angular form of the mound shape.
by the way.. when i stated ‘they’ i meant they as in the incas, mayans, etc.. don’t you think it’s a little too narrow minded to actually believe that they had zero guidance from a higher source or higher sources?? You have to understand they were into spirituality and rituals. They didn’t just base everything on mathematical equations.
Also don’t you think it’s a little ignorant to think we are the only living beings in this whole entire universe??
it’s not ignorant (since we have no actual proof of aliens; and hypothetical equations aren’t proof). But I think you meant “arrogant” instead. It wouldn’t be arrogant since (again) we would say that in the absence of proof. Other words would go better.
Because you have not seen one does not mean it does not exist. I can not see air or oxygen but they exist.
air has properties that can be measured; you need a better analogy.
You should rename the tag line to your site to:
Your antidote to cyber-twaddle and WHAT I THINK IS misguided research about the ancient world.
Because you don’t want a debate, you want to prove others wrong.