Greg Bishop recently blogged about the experiences of some of acquaintances (he missed the event itself) at a recent session during the Roswell UFO Festival. You can read the full entry for yourself, as well as comments, but I’d like to say a few things about both Greg’s blog post and the broader subject, since I have known one of the presenters (Joe Jordan) of the session Greg writes about for several years.
I commend Greg for seeking to be even-handed in his thoughts about the event. I agree with him that Joe Jordan genuinely wants those of varying perspectives to participate alongside Christians involved in ufology. I know that from personal experience, having talked to Joe about this precise point on several occasions, and having participated as a speaker at conferences like “Ancient of Days” for three years, a conference once part of the Roswell UFO festivities.
I have no doubt that the events of the session were truly disturbing for some and angered others. That sort of goes hand-in-hand with religious disagreement, though, as Greg noted, people parted on good terms (at least for the most part). Part of the reason that the religious flavor of such an event would be disturbing or angering, though, needs to be pointed out with some specificity. If Joe Jordan and those dozen or so people who testified personally at the event are telling the truth (and not just espousing a theory) — that their abduction experiences stopped when they became Christians or prayed for the experience to cease, then AT LEAST IN PART, the abduction experience is a spiritual or religious EVIL (whether those perpetrating the violence are from other planets or not). This isn’t something die hard (fundamentalist?) ETHers want to hear. They want to hear about the aliens’ message of love for humanity and that sort of thing. Personally, I don’t believe Joe or these people were lying (and they are by no means unique). I have no trouble accepting the notion that some portion of the abduction “thing” is sinister and involves spiritual beings. That view isn’t isolated to Christians, either, as anyone who has read Vallee or Keel know — and they can say Vallee and Keel are taken out of context, but it’s pretty hard to take Keel out of context when he uses terms like “demonic” (exactly what other context would there be for that?). Greg, of course, knows that there is a spiritual element to all this.
That said, I’m not completely in agreement with what Joe said (at least as it was related by Greg’s friends). Frankly, I think Joe would agree with what I’m about to say (though I want to make it clear I’m not speaking for him).
First, I think Joe would agree that it is possible that the abduction phenomenon could be BOTH a spiritual malevolence AND something else (some other category besides “demon”). In other words, “one size may not fit all.” My theology wouldn’t be shaken at all if there really were aliens coming here and abusing people — but I’ll add that I see no hard evidence for that. As anyone in the field knows, all we really have are anecdotes people provide about their experiences. Yes, there is physical evidence of trauma (wounds, marks, etc.), but none of those prove an ET origin. I have said many times I’m willing to believe that it is silly to believe that the millions of people worldwide who claim to have had such experiences are ALL lying. That’s nonsense. I think they truly experiences something, but without any real evidence that can ONLY be processed as extraterrestrial, why should that be the explanation I adopt? It isn’t going to get my approval without evidence. Hence, it must be something else, and a malevolent spiritual entity is on that list. For UFO researchers to refuse this category is for them to betray their own bias.
Second, about prayer stopping “all” abductions, I am (theologically) reticent to accept that. Why? Don’t I have enough faith? No — quantity of faith isn’t the issue. God is not a vending machine from which we get what we want at our beckoning, nor who “always” shields us from what we wouldn’t want. I am quite sure I’m not going out on a limb when I say that it’s probably a good bet that MANY Christians throughout the ages have prayed earnestly that some evil befalling them would stop, or would escape them entirely, or would not be repeated. Remember Rome and the unspeakable persecution and murder of Christians? How about the Christians in the Sudan who pray for food and water and not to starve? How about the Christians in other African dictatorships who are slaughtered? How about Christians in Indonesia today who are hunted down by Muslim nut cases? Aren’t these Christians praying? Don’t they know a prayer will just stop evil in its tracks? Maybe they didn’t pray enough, as though God was watching and said, “Bummer, one more prayer would have put them over the required number and I could help.” This too is (biblically speaking) theological nonsense. While they are asking for God’s help (and no doubt many see that help in a plethora of ways), these Christians aren’t praying with the expectation that they are going to be immune from evil, because there is no guarantee it will, and God never guaranteed that there would be. The biblical picture is one of a spiritual and earthly death match being played out in symbiosis. It’s a war for hearts, minds, AND lives. Jesus himself on a number of occasions told the disciples that they would be persecuted and killed (he even said only John would die a natural death). Even the apostle Paul, when he prayed that his thorn in the flesh would leave him, got “no” for an answer. Here’s the point in a nutshell: Christians are not immune from evil in life and are given no such guarantee in the Bible. Rather, they are frequently the target and are given the promises that God will turn all such things into good (Romans 8:28-30), that if they suffer unrighteously God sees it and will reward them in the life hereafter – indeed the followers of Christ suffer because Christ suffered (1 Peter 2:18-21). Suffering is often the will of God for the Christian; it is not something from which Christians should expect to be exempted. Peter said it as plain as day: “For ďťżit is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be Godâs will, than for doing evil” (1 Peter 3:17). Peter was ready for it, because he knew God would use it as a tool against the forces of darkness that perpetrated it (1 Peter 4:15-19). The church today is no different than the church of centuries past in this regard.
But, you might ask, surely when it comes to spiritual evil, like demons, Christians are exempt from suffering. Believers would only suffer in that case if the demonic power was solicited . . . right? No. I quote from my review of Hugh Ross’s book, Lights in the Sky and Little Green Men in this regard:
“Christians are not immune from any other type of evil whether it is “invited” or not. Christians are the victims of random violence (witness Columbine); they suffer at the hands of corrupt and evil people through no fault of their own. They are victims of uninvited fraud. When it comes to the more “directly demonic,” Ross’s position simply does not reflect the worldview of either the Old or New Testament, and in a way ties the hand of Providence from using this particular evil for His own glory . . . There were demonic strongholds in the Old Testament (like Bashan) whose threats were so real and ever-present that the “foe from the north” motif became proverbial in biblical literature. There is no hint that most or all of these threats were invited. We are told in I Peter 5:8 that Satan is OUR adversary, and so naturally he seeks to devour Christians. The text does not qualify his destructive appetite by noting “only if we invite his attacks.” Must Christians invite “the fiery darts of the wicked” (Eph. 6:16) for them to come? Does it make any sense to “put on the whole armor of God” (Eph. 6:11ff.) so as to withstand the devil when he and his minions won’t touch us without being invited? When we wrestle against “principalities and powers” (Eph. 6:12) is it our own fault for inviting the conflict? Did Jesus have to invite his own satanic temptation? Does spiritual warfare only happen when it is invited? This view is theologically incoherent.”
Joe Jordan knows all this. I doubt he would consider prayer to be a fail-safe tool against abductions, since he well knows that Christians are the victims of evil, at times as part of God’s will. Joe knows that if Jesus didn’t escape suffering as part of God’s will, followers of Christ shouldn’t expect to either. The servant is not greater than his master, as Jesus said. It’s just that Joe has seen prayer work in many instances and thinks (rightly) that the UFO community ought to hear about it. I think what Joe was demonstrating was that, indeed, the fact that prayer does work in a large number of his cases testifies to the fact that there is a sinister spiritual element to all this. If his next abductee under his counsel prayed for abductions to stop and they didn’t, Joe wouldn’t abandon his position (and shouldn’t). Joe wants to offer victims real hope — which is far better than what David “Just Put Up with the Abduction Experience” Jacobs is offering.
Lastly, I want to touch on one of Greg’s comments. He wrote:
There are many types of fundamentalistsâsocial, political, scientific, and religious, among others. The field of UFO studies is no stranger to closed minds, but if conferences and indeed the public debate on the subject is taken over by a religious (and specifically Christian) viewpoint, how long can we expect it to survive and hopefully evolve? I am no slippery-sloper, but anyone who says that they are unequivocally in the right tends to worry me.
The last part of his quote echoes my own qualification above. I think the rest of this is a careless exaggeration. So there was ONE session that focused on prayer stopping abductions (the “religious viewpoint”) and this felt like a “takeover” of the conference. Hello? I think Greg would have a point had the religious view been predominant, but all you need to do is check out the schedule of events for the Roswell UFO festival to know that certainly didn’t happen. And once you factor in all the other annual conferences that have or had no such element over the past few decades, I don’t think Greg or any other UFO enthusiast will need to run for any religion-free bunker at a UFO conference any time soon.
Thanks for reading my post carefully.
I don’t seriously think that fundamentalist Christians are going to take over the UFO field. This was mentioned in one of my replies to the post.
What I tried to make clear in the post was that I fear more groups with the type of divinely-inspired certitude not available to all will be vying for attention at the UFO public/ media show. Perhaps I shouldn’t really care, since most of the population doesn’t either.
Best,
Greg Bishop
Michael:
Bishop’s plaint, in part, seems to warn of the further erosion of UFO credibility if “religious elements” take over the debate.
If religious fanatics get hold of the UFO discussion, it’s the final nail in the coffin of “ufology.”
Your observations about the futility of prayer goes to the heart of Melville’s take on God, in Moby Dick:
Seek out God, search Him down, call out to Him and you’ll get His attention and be doomed, just as Ahab and his Pequod crew discovered.
That abductees assuaged their “kidnappers” with prayer is counter to the whole of religious experience, as you note.
RRR
Greg: Your point about not caring is actually good food for thought. Reminds of Nick Redfern’s similar sentiment some time ago on his blog.
Best,
Mike
RRR: I’m not really Melville – we should seek after God for mercy and answered prayer, but realizing that it’s not all about us. We aren’t doomed if we are believers. I don’t preach the gospel of nihilism. What a lot of Christians don’t seem to grasp nowadays is that God has a lower view of suffering than we do — he knows who are his own and that, in the end, they will be with Him and every crooked way will be made straight. It’s called the eternal perspective. God has it, but the Church has, in many respects, completely lost it (or rejected it). Many believers who haven’t succumbed to the commercialization of the faith (read: the American Church) still have it, and are willing to suffer as Jesus did. Again, the servant is not greater than his or her master.
Greg: One more note – you’re welcome. I enjoy reading your blog.
i guess the regular population doesnt care just because of the simple fact that Joe is Christian.
what the population and UFOlogists fail to see is that what if Joe Jordan and his abductees are telling the truth (and i believe they are)? why dismiss someone who is providing at least one solution to abduction just because of his faith?
the population is eating the “good et” ideology and does not take into consideration (at least it seems so) the malign abductions.
Mike, i really like what you said regarding Christians suffering, makes total sense.
thanks all for continuing this discussion.
i don’t speak for joe either, but i have a couple of things to add…
1)i think when the video comes out many will see that some things have been assumed.
2)remember the brookings report…said fundamentalists would have the problem with contact….looks to me like the people with the most problem is ufologists…not the fundamentalists.
3) i’d like to see more of what i did at the panel discussion..OPEN ENLIGHTENED DEBATE followed by all shaking hands and continuing to be friends afterwards….(brookings schmookings!!!)
Hi Michael
My name is Dave Ruffino and I spoke at the conference alongside Joe Jordan. It amazes me at how our message has been misconstrued and twisted. I’ve been listening to the comments that the UFO researchers at the conference have been making about our message. Most of them take our message to be a direct assault of them, rather than the focus of our attention, the beings that purport themselves as being extraterrestrials.
Well, I should say that I was perplexed about this until it hit me, when you come against the philosophy, you irritate the philosophers. I can only speak for myself, but I feel that Joe would agree with me, when I say that all we set out to do was to show our research and the findings that we have discovered. I felt that research is research and that we should have been afforded the courtesy that is given to fellow researchers. I did know in the back of my mind though that there would be opposition because we were presenting what has been referred to as “religion” and specifically the Christian religion. For the record, we do not refer to our faith as a religion. Religion is man’s attempt to reach god. Our faith was brought about by God (YHWH or Yahweh) reaching down to reconcile Himself with mankind. So, our faith is a relationship rather than a religion.
It never ceases to amaze me that in just about every publication on UFO’s that can be found on the newsstand, and even in the MUFON journal, there can be advertised all sorts of New Age and paranormal advertisements and this is not challenged. The New Age is religion based on eastern mysticism and the occult. But, let a believer in Yeshua Ha Mashiach (Jesus Christ) try to air an opinion and the debate starts. Can anyone see a double standard here?
I would just have everyone here know that the UFO realm, and much of the study thereof (especially as we progress in time) is rife with religion. The UFOnauts are coming here with a new gospel, and it is one that is bent on replacing what many of us know to be the true Gospel. I said it at the conference, and I will say it to my last breath; they (the entities) focus their hatred on one faith, that being faith in Yeshua Ha Mashiach; the JudeoChristian ethic. Because of this I know that faith in Yeshua is true and that others are not, based on the fact that these beings go out of their way to discredit Yeshua. When those entities start to malign Mohammed, Buddha, Vishnu or any of the other gods of this world then I will reconsider, but I won’t have to make that change of heart, because they won’t.
I went to Roswell to present research and the truth. I went with the knowledge that I probably would never be invited to speak in Roswell again and it looks like this notion was prophetic in nature. I will not back down nor will I compromise our research and the message that we brought. I will say to those who refuse to believe our research and the message that our testimony will be proven true in the days to come. Everyone has the truth now and they can accept it or they can deny it. I’ve done what Yeshua told me to do and I will continue to tell it to a more unbiased audience. Blessings to all who read this in Yeshua’s Holy Name.
Free: I like the end idea – Brookings Schmookings. That said, the Roswell atmosphere is still the exception — but that’s an important note. The attitude of the Church needs to change. If there were a spectrum of coherent Christian responses, I think that would help the Brookings problem as it relates to religious conservatives. If the conservative Christian element leaves ufology or is boycotted, it will amount to a negative validation for those who think the whole subject should be avoided.
DRuffino: I remember you from last year, Dave. Thanks for this comment. As you’ll note from my own post, I am suspecting that Joe wasn’t so categorical, since biblical theology would impinge on that. This has me wondering how the discussion can advance. I’m going to post that question to see if we can get some ideas going.
i think a good differientation to make now is the difference between “the church” and ecleesia(sp?) the body of believers.
we should make a crowbar seperation between faith and the fences man has put up around YESHUA to control the masses…which brings up the vatican’s “coming out” of late.
i really think disclosure will only be used against us as a control tactic…
sorry to stray…but did you see the backpack they’ve put on some cows to measure/contain the methane…LOL!!!….not only does that fit into facade, but also might be some kind of analogy for previous statement….;) am i just weird?
free: Yeah; I blogged about the cow fart backpack. Good (and funny) Facade connection. But I’m not a prophet … really.
Michael –
Although, I don’t know Joe personally nor was I at Roswell for the festival, I can safely assume that Joe and Dave were simply promoting the solution that will very likely solve most “UFO” abductions. It’s both ironic and sad that this probable solution scares the living daylights out of so many UFOlogists. Personally, I’d love to see a solution to being abducted against one’s free will and the whole UFO enigma solved. If Jesus Christ is the answer, then He’s the answer . Shouldn’t we all want a solution against unwanted abductions? Yes, the view espoused by Joe and Dave may eventually shut off debate, but only IF Christianity is really the answer as Dave implies and I suspect that he and Joe are likely correct. Possibly, Joe and Dave were differentiating between victims of abductions who profess to know ABOUT Jesus Christ versus those who actually know Him personally by grace. There is a difference, a HUGE difference. For example, I was raised to know ABOUT Jesus Christ and studied his word for years before Grace entered my life and enabled me to know Him personally at age 38. Even at that, I’d be the last person to say that evil never visits me since being reborn. I don’t know if evil is more prevalent since being reborn or not, but I’m very much more aware of it since being reborn, however. I can understand Gregg’s concern about Christianity shutting off debate on one level. The concern is warranted only IF Christianity is NOT the solution. Remember the passage of scripture in the NT about the council that convened to shut up the apostles since so many were turning to their teaching about JC? One of the members of the council stood up to suggest that if these men were truly acting on God’s behalf, then the council’s sanctions would literally be doomed to failure since they’d be opposing God himself. Maybe, we’re entering a similar crossroads with the UFO phenomenon… đ
@tpreitzel: Good comment, and your reference to the wise words of Gamaliel at the end are appropriate.
It would really be to your advantage if you actually saw the talk as it was presented along with the panel discussion that followed.You can preregister for the DVD at ce4research.com.It is presently in post editing and will be available in a couple of weeks.Otherwise you are only speculating on what happened in Roswell.
@CE4Research: Honestly, I think I gave you guys the benefit of the doubt. In what I posted I didn’t suggest you actually made unrealistic claims, and I also had nothing negative to say about the way I imagine you conducted yourselves. Let me know when it’s all done.
I was at the conference this summer, and I am thankful that Joe and co. made their presentation, I think it is something that needs to be heard, imho there are spiritual aspects to this whole phenomenon. I can’t remember the guy’s name, but he was the moderator during the q&a, and he made a good point when he said that the man whom he had assisted over the years had several abductees who had called on the name of JESUS and the abductions didn’t stop…he asked if there were some Christians who were better than others…this was a good point, and I think your (Dr. Heiser) response to this is excellent. Joe handled it very well in my opinion, and was by no means trying to shove his views down people’s throats. He thanked the entire panel for their input and seemed to be very open to hearing their what they had to say. The conference was hardly overly religious, I really hope they’re not trying to spin it that way, that would be sooo untrue. Just some observations from someone who was actually there.
Mike,that comment was not to you but to everyone else.To give them the opportunity to see the whole talk.I thank you very much for standing up for us.I knew this “Unwanted Piece of the UFO Puzzle”would be very challenging to present.But we were able to bring our piece to the UFO table.Many people were very thankful for being able to see the truth finally brought forth.
Hi Michael,
The discussion can advance if the prejudice from certain people is dropped and they can look at things from a fresh perspective. For instance, let me relate my history a little.
I grew up with UFOs and I was the kid on the block who had the strange dad who believed in the little green men. As I grew older I believed as my dad, but my generation was different in that they didn’t have the prejudice of our parent’s generation and we were willing to look into the UFO phenomenon without much bias. As a result, many of the UFO researchers of today do not experience the ridicule that we did when I was a kid, and they have quite a bit of notority and they are recognized as credible researchers in a valid field of study. Just watch cable television and see their faces day in and day out.
What I have found, being a Christian UFO researcher is that the we are treated the same as the UFO researchers of my youth. We are looked at like we are on the lunatic fringe and if we are tolerated at all it is because of a feigned “political correctness” that is exuded by our secular collegues.
I find it quite interesting that the UFO researchers of my youth constantly tried to get people to look at the subject of UFOs and they tried to do so by pointing out that people were seeing things. They were trying to get people to look at the testimonies and they noted that testimonies were valid and presentable, much like in a courtroom scenario. But today, the secular researcher (as witnessed at the panel discuasion) says that testimonies aren’t valid and that they need scientific proof. Sorry, but if the testimony of two or more people can send a person to prison for a life term, then the testimony of 50+ testimonies on our website and over 300 total over the years; stating that the name of Jesus stops abductions should be admissible and should be recognized.
It’s too bad that the secular UFO researchers of today are showing the same prejudice that their forefathers were shown; and they’re showing it toward the Christian UFO researchers of today.
Finally, we should consider something. When other researchers whom represent other religions bring up their thoughts on the matter they are not scoffed at or ridiculed. Farah Yurdozu is one example. She has stated that she thinks that the demons of old and the aliens are the same entities. The New Age is quick to point out that they think that their “Jesus” has involvement in the UFO phenomenon and their books and papers are in UFO magazines and even advertised in the MUFON Journal. But, if the Biblical Jesus Christ is mentioned there is a gnashing of the teeth by the secular UFO researchers. This confirms to me further that our research proves this phenomenon to be of fallen angels and demons. Those who deny our claim, well, they have the truth now and it is up to them what they do with it. They can accept it and hopefully study it and find the fantastic liberation of the truth, or they can continue in their unbelief. We’ll all stand before our Maker some day. I’ve stood on the city wall and told the truth and will stand justified on the last day and can only pray that those who now know the truth will accept the WORD and come to know HIS Salvation. Know for sure that ignorance will not be accepted as an excuse.
@Catherine_B: Good; this is what I’d expect.
@CE4Research: No doubt; I look forward to seeing it. Please let me know when the DVD is out. And I’ll buy one – I don’t expect a freebie.
@druffino: Thanks Dave. I think you make some valid observations. It’s interesting that you said “As I grew older I believed as my dad, but my generation was different in that they didnât have the prejudice of our parentâs generation and we were willing to look into the UFO phenomenon without much bias.” It seems that those who are blogging about UFOs are hoping that the new/next generation of researchers (those under 50 I guess) will be sincerely willing to look at other options besides the ETH. Perhaps that is a point of agreement that can go somewhere.
Regarding the value of testimony, I agree with you with a caveat. I also think that most people can be given the benefit of the doubt when they say they saw something. It’s nonsense to think millions across the globe and across cultures can be simultaneously or historically lying in strikingly close ways. Their testimony isn’t the issue with me — it’s how the experience is processed. THAT is the place to be critically engaged, in my view. Having an experience and then telling us what you think it means are not on the same truth/accuracy level.
Lastly, you’re right about other religious interpretations not being ridiculed or objected to. It’s hypocritical to single out Christianity. I’ve been at meetings where the new age theology was flowing quite freely and no one peeped about it. I also think atheist material is a *belief* system (and the Supreme Court agrees with me; some on the court in the past have called it a religion). That certainly doesn’t get criticized. Bring them all into the room for the discussion.
I think I would have to agree with Joe Jordan’s stance on UFOs and aliens being demonic in origin. I used to be a firm believer in aliens and now have come to the same overwhelming conclusion that they have a clear anti-Christian luciferian agenda. Many people know this and understand the planned deception that is taking place.
Your argument that you cannot stop 100% of these alien abductions through calling on Christ because if that was true people could call on the name of Christ and get anything they wanted is ridiculous. There is big difference between praying that something turn out the way in you want it in life and directly encountering and confronting a demonic prescence that is personally trying to possess or manipulate someones brain.
Demonic entities can definitely oppress and tempt Christians but I do not believe they can possess a true believer that is indwelled with the Holy Spirit. As Christians we can claim authority over demons who try to tempt, opress or possess in any way, not by our power, but by claiming the power and authority of Christ. Demons are under the direct authority of the Holy Bible and must tell the truth when asked by what authority they have entered. A demon can only enter if given permission or authority in some way and a demon must disclose this information if asked by a true believer under the authority of the Holy Spirit.
Dealing with demonic entities Christ will always triumph and evil spirits know this and are aware that they are under his authority. All we have to do is claim it and rebuke it and yes 100% of the time this is successful in demonic oppression. Note that this will not work for unbelievers, only for those who have been saved by God’s grace and have accepted the free gift of Christ’s salvation and eternal life.
It is not only the fact that these beings are stopped by invoking the name of Christ, but it is also what they stand for.
If you listen to people who claim to be in touch with aliens they all have ONE thing in common. The âoriginal sin.â
What did satan tell Eve in the garden when he convinced her to eat of the fruit? He told her that she could become a god. What do you hear today by all these new age ideas like, âthe secretâ and Eckhart Tolleâs âA new Earth.â They all teach that we are gods or can evolve into gods. Over and over again you hear this today with everything connected to 2012, UFOs, and the Aquarian age. It is quite clear to see the common agenda when you understand that anything connected to the original sin is connected to the great lie. It is even more obvious when you see how many people are actually embracing âserpent-likeâ ideas based around quetzequatel, kundalini energy, serpent races, reptilians, and even the idea of eating the fruit of the tree to find enlightenment. If you believe this you might as well admit you are aligned with a luciferian agenda whether you like it or not.
Satan has never changed his motive or his plan, he has only changed his disguise. The Bible tells us that lucifer disguises himself as an âangel of light.â and deceives with mimics of truth. Remember, lucifer and his demons are fallen angels, this means that they had access to heavenly realms and they use this knowledge to mimic Godâs peace in order to prey on the ego and pride of mans sin nature to become god like and do what they want. What do we hear over and over again from people that claim to be in touch with the enlightened masters? They tell that we must become light beings and that we can âevolve into godsâ Not only this but they want to reduce the population and form a global world government and religion all in the name of peace and love.
Have you ever wondered why you always hear Christians saying Jesus is the only way? Maybe it is because it really truly does just happen to be the truth and the only way. Could that be possible? I mean why would these Christians get up and say this over and over again unless there was something to it? Is that not worth investigating for yourself? How can we ignore the truth if that is what it truly is? The fact that the truth happens to agree with one religion or another should really be irrelevant if we really want to know what is really going on. Peopleâs opposition and outright anger toward the Christian UFO viewpoint does nothing but add credence and strength to the idea these things are demonic. After all, many people out there have opened themselves up to so-called âalien communication and âspirit guidesâ and if aliens are really demons posing in disguise they probably do not want their hosts to hear this information and truth. This shows that these people might not be enlightened at all but fooled and possessed by entities that will mimic anything they need to in order to fool and oppress and could create great anger and internal rage in people to keep them from hearing the truth.
I find it also so interesting how UFO believers donât seem to mind integrating the religious views of new age and eastern beliefs such as Buddhism, Hinduism, occultism, etc⌠As an example, I would point out the pictures on the top of Greg Bishops blogspot. One is of Alister Crowleyâs demonic alien buddy, another the alien yin yang sign, and also the all seeing eye at the top of the pageâŚ..interesting. All of these symbols are new age, eastern, and Masonic. Yet people say they are against bringing religion into the picture only when we speak about Christianity, why is that? I think we should bring EVERYTHING relevant into the mix and the real truth will rise to the top. The second you refuse one persons argument is the second you may miss the truth and this is satan’s goal.
It is quite eye opening to see that it seems every eastern religion is embraced by the new age and ufo movement but when someone brings up Christianity people get angry and close minded. Why? Why is it that it seems the only time you hear people in the UFO movement talk about Jesus is when they are telling you how his message was really misunderstood and how he actually wanted us to realize our own Christ consciousness and god like abilities to evolve? Sound familiar? We are right back to the original sin, time and time again. It seems UFO believers only like to talk about Christianity if they are trying to prove it wrong or twist the words of Jesus to align with their lies.
This opposition does nothing but strengthen the argument and evidence that UFOs and aliens are indeed anti-Christian and connected to a larger end times deception. Helena Blavatsky and the theosophical society were planning the emergence of this deception way back in the 1800âs and this is why evolution was so fundamentally important for satan to have as a foundation at that time and this time in order that people can be deceived by the same lie in modern times. Nothing is new under the sun and satan will always mimic the truth and people will always be willingly ignorant to embrace the same lie of the original sin which is rooted in the pride, ego, and selfishness of humans to try and deify themselves as gods. I believe this is the key to understanding the truth from the lie is simply to look for the original sin and you will spot it every time. There is only one true God and no one will ever be a god and we cannot worship the Creation instead of the Creator or else we will be tricked into the same old deception.
@DLAB: Your objection below lacks coherence (i.e., you’re not thinking clearly about this). You wrote:
“Your argument that you cannot stop 100% of these alien abductions through calling on Christ because if that was true people could call on the name of Christ and get anything they wanted is ridiculous. There is big difference between praying that something turn out the way in you want it in life and directly encountering and confronting a demonic prescence that is personally trying to possess or manipulate someones brain.”
You pretty much completely miss the point. Do you think the abduction experience is evil? You MUST since you have pointed to its demonic origin. Okay, here is the point I was making.
Premise 1: Evil is perpetrated upon Christians.
Premise 2: It is sometimes God’s will that Christians suffer wrongly and are victims of evil.
Premise 3: Praying in Jesus’ name will not stop suffering because of evil if that suffering is God’s will (Jesus and Paul couldn’t pray there way out of that path).
Premise 4: Being victimized in an abduction experience is evil.
Conclusion: Therefore, there is no guarantee that prayer will stop the experience; God may allow the experience for some greater purpose, just as he allows Christians to suffer in all sorts of other ways.
I challenge you to put forth ANY biblical argument that ANY of the premises above are flawed or not true. If (since) you can’t, you owe me an apology about my argument being ridiculous.
Continuing – Yes, when JESUS dealt with demonic entities, they were vanquished. Are you Jesus? I’m not. Pardon me for being skeptical that you are, either. Where did Jesus or God guarantee that the answer to every prayer would be “yes”? What about Paul’s “thorn in the flesh,” which the Bible calls a “messenger of Satan” – why didn’t Paul get a positive answer to that prayer (2 Cor 12:7-9)? Paul asked in Jesus’ name and the answer was not deliverance. Last time I checked, Paul was a believer. Give me an answer as to why this was the case that still allows your view to stand.
Lastly, I agree that demonic entities cannot possess a believer, but we’re not talking about possession, so this isn’t germane. Abductions are not possession. Possession is taking up residence (the disembodied demon “borrowing” or residing in a body). I don’t think you could find a single abduction case that matches a biblical description of possession.
Yes I believe that abduction experiences are perpetrated by evil demonic beings posing as aliens. I believe that these beings can only engage with people that allow themselves to be open to the experiences.
You are comparing the apostle Paul’s thorn in his side to a demonic presence which I feel are completely different. While I may not be able to pray away every sickness and pain, I can stop demons 100% of the time by the authority of Christ. I may not be Christ by I can call on the authority of him and count on his power every single time to conquer any demonic presence. I am not trying to be a jerk but your argument is still ridiculous in my eyes and there is a night and day difference between a demonic presence and Christians suffering from the evils of sin in our world. An abduction experience is far different from an everyday encounter with an evil human sinner. I believe an abduction experience is a direct confrontation with a demonic entity rather than just dealing with the everyday sins, trials and tribulations of the world.
If a ghost confronted the apostle Paul harassing him do you not think that it could be stopped by claiming authority over it in Christ’s name?
I am enjoying this lively discussion and I know that Yeshua is Lord over it…hallelujah.
It is true that the oppression will sometimes continue. It has been true in my own life. The attacks seem to always come when Yahweh is going to do some profound move in my life. For instance, heavy attack just about the time He led me to start The Delusion Resistance http://www.delusionresistance.org . My fiance decided to join in the ministry and the attacks started on her. But let me add, that we have authority and we tell them to take a hike in Yeshua’s name and use the power and authority of His Name, which we have as adopted heirs with Messiah. Paul himself talks about a messenger of Satan that “buffeted” him at times and when he petitioned Yahweh about it Yahweh told him, “my grace is sufficient for you.” The word buffeted, in the Greek means to be shoved around, pushed and physically abused. So, there are reasons why Yahweh allows these things to remain in our lives. The important thing to remember is that we have the power and authority of Yeshua Ha Mashiach (Jesus Christ) and that the alien mask has been removed so that we can see these things for what they really are. When we see them for what they really are we realize that they are just the neighborhood bully and they are really nothing to fear.
What I’d also like to touch upon is that prayer is important in this warfare, there is no denying. But there are times when we have to step out in faith, and in our authority, which comes from Mashiach and we can use that authority to demand that the demons leave. Scripture points out, and I have found it to be true, that when we do rebuke these entities, we should say, “Yahweh Yeshua (the Lord Jesus) rebuke you; after all, it is His authority to begin with.
The one thing that I really wanted to touch upon though is what some of the researchers said about the name of Yeshua not working for some people. True that maybe this is allowed to happen for some purpose that only Yahweh knows but here is something else. We have to discover who the victim considers Yeshua to be. I will explain further. I had one case where a woman called me for counseling and said that she had called on Yeshua’s name a few times with no result. After talking with her a while she revealed to me that she believed in the New Age Jesus, or just a being who once came to earth with the “Christ Consciousness” and who was on the same par as Buddha, Mohammed and other renown philosophers. When she called on Yeshua, she was calling on that personage. Basically, she was calling on one satanic force to rescue her from the aliens (another satanic force). Might as well have called on Bill Clinton or Howdy Doody because the results would have been the same. We have to wonder, and it is pretty well set in my mind, that if, let’s say that a Muslim called on Yeshua it might not work because he only sees Yeshua as one of many great prophets, and not the Son of God, or God Himself. It is also possible that a Mormon wouldn’t be able to afford the help because they have a warped (by Biblical standards) sense of who Yeshua really is, seeing that they believe that Yeshua and Satan are brothers. This idea can be used with all other religions, and especially if they don’t recognize Yeshua as being Yahweh! Just a postulation that I think that everyone should consider in this discussion. Be blessed my brothers in Yahweh Yeshua!
Dave Ruffino
@DLAB: I don’t have to contrive any comparison – the biblical text says that the thorn was a messenger (Greek: aggelos, the normal word for angel) of Satan. Paul himself marks it as a satanic source. The parallel is appropriate.
@DLAB: By the way, in biblical theology, ghosts (the human dead – biblical term, metim) are not demons (biblical term: shedim; ‘obot). Since we don’t have any examples in the Bible of ghosts being rebuked, I can’t make any claims about your question. Ghosts were a recent topic over at my other blog, The Naked Bible. I laid out all the texts relevant to the topic and went through them.
I am enjoying this lively discussion and I know that Yeshua is Lord over itâŚhallelujah.
It is true that the oppression will sometimes continue. It has been true in my own life. The attacks seem to always come when Yahweh is going to do some profound move in my life. For instance, heavy attack just about the time He led me to start The Delusion Resistance http://www.delusionresistance.org . My fiance decided to join in the ministry and the attacks started on her. But let me add, that we have authority and we tell them to take a hike in Yeshuaâs name and use the power and authority of His Name, which we have as adopted heirs with Messiah. Paul himself talks about a messenger of Satan that âbuffetedâ him at times and when he petitioned Yahweh about it Yahweh told him, âmy grace is sufficient for you.â The word buffeted, in the Greek means to be shoved around, pushed and physically abused. So, there are reasons why Yahweh allows these things to remain in our lives. The important thing to remember is that we have the power and authority of Yeshua Ha Mashiach (Jesus Christ) and that the alien mask has been removed so that we can see these things for what they really are. When we see them for what they really are we realize that they are just the neighborhood bully and they are really nothing to fear.
What Iâd also like to touch upon is that prayer is important in this warfare, there is no denying. But there are times when we have to step out in faith, and in our authority, which comes from Mashiach and we can use that authority to demand that the demons leave. Scripture points out, and I have found it to be true, that when we do rebuke these entities, we should say, âYahweh Yeshua (the Lord Jesus) rebuke you; after all, it is His authority to begin with.
The one thing that I really wanted to touch upon though is what some of the researchers said about the name of Yeshua not working for some people. True that maybe this is allowed to happen for some purpose that only Yahweh knows but here is something else. We have to discover who the victim considers Yeshua to be. I will explain further. I had one case where a woman called me for counseling and said that she had called on Yeshuaâs name a few times with no result. After talking with her a while she revealed to me that she believed in the New Age Jesus, or just a being who once came to earth with the âChrist Consciousnessâ and who was on the same par as Buddha, Mohammed and other renown philosophers. When she called on Yeshua, she was calling on that personage. Basically, she was calling on one satanic force to rescue her from the aliens (another satanic force). Might as well have called on Bill Clinton or Howdy Doody because the results would have been the same. We have to wonder, and it is pretty well set in my mind, that if, letâs say that a Muslim called on Yeshua it might not work because he only sees Yeshua as one of many great prophets, and not the Son of God, or God Himself. It is also possible that a Mormon wouldnât be able to afford the help because they have a warped (by Biblical standards) sense of who Yeshua really is, seeing that they believe that Yeshua and Satan are brothers. This idea can be used with all other religions, and especially if they donât recognize Yeshua as being Yahweh! Just a postulation that I think that everyone should consider in this discussion. Be blessed my brothers in Yahweh Yeshua!
Dave Ruffino
@druffino: Good post Dave. I want to focus on your last paragraph. I’ve sort of been waiting for this to come up. I’ve given it its own post so we can get some response.
I don’t think that at all times we can command the demonic entities that oppress us or harrass us. Sometimes I believe that the LORD uses them to bump us in another direction sometimes. For example, didn’t one of the members of the Council volunteer to be a lying spirit to someone? I realize that this isn’t a demon, but both are spiritual entities, and it would seem like this concept might apply…
but DLAB u still realize that they both are considered bad things which happen 2 people and the paralell that Mike used about st.paul is very much correct! as well on Jordans website about a testimony of a woman named sue she made her alter call in 1993 and she got experiences that were WORSE in 2001! and she seemed to stop the experiences more effectively with drinking,smoking and just being angry than anything else! As well she even said that she was able to stop them with prayer to Jesus OR Just by being extremely mad!