I’m almost afraid to ask the question. It seems whenever I do, something comes along to produce an affirmative answer.
Lately I’ve been seeing things on Facebook (or have had those who follow my work sending me items) that ask if I believe the earth is flat. That’s a question I never thought I’d get, and I’ve gotten hundreds. Why the surprise? It’s difficult for me to believe anyone is so gullible and, yes, stupid, to believe the earth is flat. But as with so many other nuggets of nonsense, social media has brought forth its exhibits to demonstrate that reality.
Those of in the sane world might wonder where the question comes from. The answer is my work (not mine, really — just those ancient writers in the Bible whose worldview knew nothing of modern cosmology, space flight, celestial mechanics, etc.). I and other OT scholars (e.g., John Walton; see below) have written articles about the pre-modern cosmology of the biblical writers — about how the biblical text describes a round, flat earth, complete with a covering dome, to which were affixed the stars (which in turn were thought to be divine beings, or under the power of divine beings). That work is being used by leaders in the flat earth camp (yes, it exists — in the same neighborhood as ancient astronaut theorists) as proof of this view. My picture and links to my writings or lectures have been touted on Facebook and other hallowed learning communities creating the impression that I believe the earth is flat, not round.
What Mike Thinks
I’m appalled that people who follow Christ are this dumb (or so easily led astray into embracing beliefs that are demonstrably contrary to reality). This level of willful ignorance dishonors God. The stupidity of modern flat earth belief is transparent in today’s world. Space flight (really, flight between hemispheres), satellite communications, space photography (any photography showing the earth’s curvature), etc. show the idea to be utter nonsense. And that’s before getting into the nuts-and-bolts science. Yet some people think they need to believe it to have a “true” Bible. This is mindless, simplistic literalism at its worst. (Well, maybe it can get worse … keep reading).
My position is straightforward. The biblical writers do indeed describe a flat round earth (with other features the flat earthers skip; see below). They wrote about the world this way because they lived at a time before knowledge of the natural world was sufficient to demonstrate otherwise. But I don’t believe the earth is really flat “because the Bible tells me so.” The knowledge the biblical writers had of their physical surroundings isn’t a truth proposition for biblical theology. Anyone who uses my work to prop up this idea without providing a disclaimer that I reject modern flat earth thinking is unprincipled and deliberately dishonest.
I can already hear the comeback. “Let God be true and every man a liar!” Let me just say God isn’t a liar. He knows (and knew) the earth is a globe. It just happens that the people he chose to produce this thing we call the Bible didn’t know that. And God couldn’t have cared less. The writers God used to produce the Bible were not inspired to write about things of the natural world that were beyond their own worldview and knowledge base. And to argue (as normal 24-hour day creationists do) that God gave them advanced scientific knowledge, or that such advanced knowledge is encrypted in the biblical text, means that what they wrote could never have communicated that important knowledge to their original audience (or any audience prior to recent centuries). These approaches are absurd and undermine the communicative purpose of the Bible. What we read in Genesis (and elsewhere) reflects a common ancient Near Eastern perspective about cosmology with one crucial difference: the credit for creation is given exclusively to the God of Israel against all other gods. that is its truth claim with respect to creation. That Israelite cosmology is quite consistent with wider ancient Near Eastern cosmology is easy to demonstrate.1 That God chose people of a certain time, a certain place, with a certain (limited) knowledge base was up to him. We dishonor His choices when we impose our questions and our context on the biblical writers. Precisely the same limitations would be in place if God chose a scientist today to write Genesis. 1000 years from now people would chuckle at how primitive he/she was (“Can you believe this is what they thought?”). This is why the Bible intentionally transcends science discourse — science always changes with new discovery and knowledge. Who the creator was never changes.
So I have a better comeback line: “Let God’s decisions for inspiration be honored, and every flat earther be ashamed for dishonoring God’s decisions.”
For a short essay I wrote on Israelite cosmology for the lay person, see this link:
Genesis and Ancient Near Eastern Cosmology
Or you can watch my lecture on this topic:
Moving On
I want having to talk about this drivel to actually be a teachable moment — in this case, one about logic and consistency in interpretation. (In other words, let’s talk about how dishonest flat earth teaching is). I have some questions for the flat earthers:
- If the earth is round and flat, where are the edges? (where is its rim?) Can you give us the latitude and longitude for that … pardon, we wouldn’t need latitude and longitude if the earth were round, but you get the point.
- If we are to take Israelite cosmology as literal scientific reality, where is the dome over the earth? If earth were basically one gargantuan snow globe, how is it we can launch satellites? Why doesn’t the space shuttle crash into or through the dome? Where are the “dome shards” from such impacts? (Oh, let me guess — they were taken by the government and are now in the Smithsonian’s secret cellars). How are meteors possible? What about asteroids? Are both of those space debris items just made up?
- If we are to take Israelite cosmology as literal scientific reality, why don’t you take other items of “biblical science” literally? Here are some examples:
- Do whole human persons really reside in the loins of males before they are conceived, much less born? That’s what a literalist reading of Hebrews 7:4-10 says (vv. 9-10 – “. . . Levi himself, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham, for he was still in the loins of his ancestor when Melchizedek met him”). Sorry, but we really do know where babies come from — better, whole human persons. Whole persons are a fusion of body and soul (material and immaterial nature). Every human person is the result of a combination of genetic material from a man and woman (or a male and female donor). That union of material can only reside in a woman (in the natural world) or a petri dish in our scientific world. Artificial insemination and “test tube babies” are realities because Hebrews 7 isn’t accurate science. If it was, then the “science” of Hebrews 7 has us committing murder with every use of a condom, or every ejaculation outside the womb, deliberate or otherwise (so you “natural birth control” folks are just as guilty). This is perverse on so many levels. But I ask again, if the Bible’s flat earth teaching corresponds to literal scientific reality, why aren’t you embracing the argument of Hebrews 7? (This, and with respect to what follows, is the part where things really can get dumber, per this post’s title).
- Is the hair on a woman’s head really part of her genitalia that assists in drawing a man’s semen to her uterus so she can conceive? That’s what people in Paul’s day believed about hair. And based on what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 11 about hair and covering the head, he believed it, too. So I guess we need to in order to “believe the Bible.” Why not? You believe the earth is really flat, so why are you omitting this “Bible reality”? Don’t think that what I’m saying about first century people connecting hair to fertility and procreation is correct? Listen to this episode of my Naked Bible podcast. I quote ancient Greco-Roman philosophers (ever heard of Aristotle?) and physicians (how about Hippocrates?) to show this is indeed the case.2 (That’s called using primary sources for tapping into the worldview of the biblical writers — same thing I did for the flat earth stuff … so are you going to be consistent or not?) Again … we know today how procreation really works, scientifically. The hair on a woman’s head isn’t part of conception.
- Does the brain play no role in thought (oh, the jokes I could insert here for this whole topic) or emotion? The Bible attributes those things to the kidneys, heart, and general innards (Gen 6:5; Psa 16:7; 26:2; Jer 11:20; etc.). Biblical Hebrew has no word for brain. So, the Bible tells us that our brain must be useless with respect to those things. But those are poetic expressions, Mike! Why? How is that consistent with your flat-earth literalism (no poetic expressions allowed)? So, dear flat earther, is mental illness really something a cardiologist should be addressing? When you have heart problems do you visit a psychiatrist or psychologist? If you don’t, you’re dishonest with your hermeneutics.
I could on. I trust my clear-thinking readers get the point. I only hope flat earthers will as well. Not only is modern flat earth belief irrational, the alleged honor it pays to the Bible is disingenuous without consistency. My guess is that flat earth theory leaders won’t care. They seek to build their own little fiefdoms of faithful, deluded followers. They want to be looked upon as gatekeepers of the truth. But they are self-deluded attention seekers. No allegiance should be given to them by followers of Christ.
- See for example: John H. Walton, Ancient Near Eastern Thought and the Old Testament: Introducing the Conceptual World of the Hebrew Bible Luist Stadelmann, The Hebrew Conception of the World: A Philological and Literary Study. ↩
- The excerpts are drawn from a wider mass of material put forth by the work of NT scholar Troy Martin, whose academic focus is Greco-Roman medical texts; see the podcast link for the source. To quote part of Martin’s conclusion: “This ancient physiological conception of hair indicates that Pauls argument from nature in 1 Cor 11:13-15 contrasts long hair in women with testicles in men. Paul states that appropriate to her nature, a woman is not given an external testicle (περιβόλαιον, 1 Cor 11:15b) but rather hair instead. Paul states that long hollow hair on a woman’s head is her glory (δόξα, 1 Cor 11:15) because it enhances her female φύσις, which is to draw in and retain semen. Since female hair is part of the female genitalia, Paul asks the Corinthians to judge for themselves whether it is proper for a woman to display her genitalia when praying to God ( 1 Cor 11:13)”. ↩
Very amused by this baffling movement in the “all the world’s a conspiracy” department, and I can hear the emotion dripping in your tone.
I’ve recently been challenged by “Love God with all of your Mind” by J.P. Moreland, who challenges us to engage material harder than we can are comfortable with (like, um, learning Ancient Hebrew) as an act of worship and to combat the anti-intellectualism that pervades too much of Christianity. As I often tell my pre-teen daughter, get off of YouTube, put your phone down and pick up a book.
Quick note on Walton… Logos has his “Genesis 1 as Ancient Cosmology” book available this month for $1.99. https://www.logos.com/free-book-of-the-month
I started learning Biblical Hebrew via lectures uploaded onto YouTube. 😉
But I agree with you otherwise.
Interesting stuff, Mike, about women’s hair. I have always struggled to understand that passage. It seems there is a fair amount of stuff impossible to understand outside the cultural context.
Yeah… I should’ve studied some of those YouTube videos before signing up in Dr. Heiser’s Memra class on Biblical Hebrew… I’m woefully behind and have to keep reminding myself that I’m taking it as an act of worship… I’m taking it as an act of worship… Don’t give up… don’t give up…
https://jasonbiette.wordpress.com/2016/01/10/creational-epistemology/
https://jasonbiette.wordpress.com/2016/02/05/special-revelation-vs-general-revelation/
Thank God you stepped into that conversation Dr Heiser, it was getting deep.
I was still defending your view for the next two hours in three threads on the same post!
I know I shouldn’t waste too much time, however he (who shall remain nameless, for now) was trying to justify himself, which I thought was no better.
If I hadn’t taken the time I was afraid they would just believe his self deluded sense of piety.
Thank you Dr Heiser for being a voice of reason in a very literalist world of Western “theology”.
I haven’t had the same problems talking with traditional Christians, they recognize the different writing methods, take E. Orthodox for example, this video clearly shows they comprehend exactly what you’re talking about, https://youtu.be/68tEUHepVQY
This is very refreshing.
Thanks again sir, you help us in apologetics more then you think!
you’re welcome; I appreciate the defense, but no doubt the time could have been spent more profitably.
Complete waste of time no one has ever gone from one pole around the world and came to where they began crossing the other pole along the way
When the flat earth facts are looked at.
Its undeniably a plane and the sun and moon circle above us as described by the flat earthers who wrote the bible and built the pyramids.
This makes absolutely no sense at all — which is why I approved it. Thanks!
Awesome dude! I was hoping there would be some funny comments on this thread, thanks again for making me laugh.
Biblical scholar E. W. Bullinger was a flat earther?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/m4l6w84xvpq33bv/Ethelbert%20William%20Bullinger%20%28A%20Documented%20Flat-Earther%29.pdf?dl=0
if so, that would be sad.
Just reference the report (from the above dropbox link.
I showed the evidence which I have gathered to Ron Shea (a Doctor of Jurisprudence from Hastings College of law)and he stated that, taken together it provides “clear and convincing proof” that E. W. Bullinger was a committee member of a flat-earth society.
Clear and convincing proof means that the evidence presented by a party must be highly and substantially more probable to be true than not.
Legal standards for burden of proof from lowest to highest:
1. Reasonable suspicion
2. Reasonable to believe
3. Probable cause for arrest
4. Some credible evidence
5. Substantial evidence
6. Preponderance of the evidence
7. Clear and convincing evidence
8. Beyond reasonable doubt
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_burden_of_proof
This is a good example of sophistry. It answers none of my questions.
Sophistry: the use of reasoning or arguments that sound correct but are actually false.
If you believe my report on Bullinger to be falsified information, then prove it.
The Bullinger report is pertinent to your article as will be shown in the following syllogism:
All modern flat earthers are stupid
E. W. Bullinger was a modern flat earther
Therefore, E. W. Bullinger was stupid
You may retort, “Ah, but he didn’t have access to photos from space, GPS, and satellite TV.” To which I reply, are these the great proofs of the heliocentric globular Earth model? Was not the heliocentric globular Earth model “proven” centuries ago? Did Bullinger not have access to the nuts-and-bolts science of which you allude?
As it stands, a sound deduction will verify that you are clearly asserting that Biblical scholar E. W. Bullinger was a dumb, stupid, gullible, mindless, irrational, deluded, willfully ignorant, dishonest, God dishonoring, simplistic, and easily led astray individual.
Yes, it’s sophistry to use these arguments to defend something as falsifiable as a flat earth.
There, I proved it.
YUP! Just the facts..
2 Timothy 3:16 -All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
Obviously Heiser doesn’t accept that. Therefore he is a heretic.
I used to respect the man. He should go join Putnam and the other Jesuits at Skywatch.
I do accept it. All Scripture is ultimately of divine origin (providential use of people or otherwise). God knew what he was getting with the people he chose. But not everything in the Bible is a truth proposition. I doubt you know what that means. If you want to know, look it up. I get the impression you’re not teachable, so I won’t bother. If you’re in the flat earth camp, you lost the ability to think clearly some time ago. I wish that hadn’t happened.
@ Thomas
Luke 13:34 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!” (ESV).
Hey look, we can quote scripture too!
I hope those that agree with Mike can take this discussion to its natural conclusion.
That being – if the scientific evidence supports Evolution and the Bible isn’t built to comment upon whether Evolution is true or not, it is therefore “ok” to be a Christian and also accept the scientific facts of Evolution…
I would say, it is my opinion that the Bible cannot comment in any significant or meaningful way upon any of our current understandings of science, as Mike has shown in several of his recent posts. If this be true for flat earth (an idea which the Bible clearly supports) and if it be true for hair being a sex organ (which Paul clearly believed) and if it be true for the idea that the soul resides in the kidneys/abdomen (which the Bible clearly states), then it is also true of ANY scientific fact that we know to be true but “conflicts” the Bible.
So, you have to come to grips with the fact that the Bible isn’t designed to address modern understandings of the scientific workings of our world. We cannot hold it accountable for something that it isn’t trying to do. If that be the case, then there IS NO conflict between the Bible and modern science. You just have to let the Bible be what it is.
I believe the bible is silent on evolution, quantum physics, how germs are spread, etc. for the reasons indicated in the post. None of what modern science says (theoretical or confirmed) is in view for the biblical writers. It is not part of their world, so we’re foolish to make it part of their world.
Wonderful! Pointed out much of this to a FB friend “Leader” on two occasions. I prayed daily for this LEADER to come back to “Rationality” and to consider all the Harm being done to their “Followers”. (This is the key point we must debate, the Harm to their Followers, not FE) Both times this LEADER, withdrew from FB / Internet for weeks…. And I thought God had answered my prayers, yet sadly each time this christian LEADER returned to their Internet presence with a stronger and more blind commitment to this absurdity- which will cause so much harm to new and young believers….. I continue to pray. But will not argue with these folks anymore. They have had the Gaul to tell me that more people have come to Christ through FE than than through all their previous preaching! This post is wonderfully complete! beware of wasting to much time on this subject….
Christopher – Have you ever used the phrase “I felt it in my gut” or something similar? Do you literally think that your feelings come from your gut? Why can’t the bible use similar phrases? I don’t think these passages imply the hebrews literally thought that the soul was in the abdomen.
They were not being figurative. We want to take it that way b/c we know the truth of the matter. And you can take it that way if you want. But, ancient man thought the spirit/soul was located in the abdomen. That is why those organs were saved by the Pharoahs while the brain was removed and destroyed. That is just what they thought and it came across naturally in the way they wrote about these things. I don’t know why this is a problem…
When I say “saved by the Pharoahs” I mean that when they died their internal organs were put in jars and kept in the tomb for the afterlife, so their soul would accompany them on that journey. Their brain was removed and destroyed…because they really didn’t know what it did. That just goes to show what they thought about where the soul dwelt.
Provide evidence the ancient Egyptians destroyed the brains when embalming, and also prove your assertion of why they did it. Because I am calling BS on this one.
I’ve read the OP and subsequent comments here. I agree that Flat Earthers” are doing way more harm than good. Frankly, it’s embarrassing.
But here’s the real issue for me. Does Scripture contain an accurate record of life’s orgins or is it merely the lore of the ANE? It seems Dr. Heiser would say it’s a mixture of both (i.e. Scripture is of human origin but ultimately by divine providence). This however doesn’t lend much support for how one is to go about separating the “truth” from the “lore”. One could easily dismiss Genesis as entirely lore. If Genesis contains more lore than truth, for example such that “firmament” means “solid structure” (and NOT “open expanse”), then it’s more fiction than reality.
So where is the lay person supposed to land? How are we to separate fact from fiction? How are we modern day folks to orient our own reality in light of Scripture? If Scripture contains fiction (which it does if “firmament” can ONLY mean “solid structure”) then how can the rest of Scripture be trusted, including its salvific content?
It sure would be nice if someone would come up with a WORKABLE paradigm for what exactly makes the combined writings of Scripture “authoritative”.
And, yes, I realize tomes have been written on this. It’s the “workability” of the proposed paradigms (at least that I’ve seen) that are lacking, particularly with respect to internal consistency.
If anyone knows of an objective, cogent resource that can steer me in the right direction for understanding WHY the writings of Scripture are authorative (beyond circular reasoning), I’d truly appreciate it.
PS: HELP!!
The bible is not a science book!
No kidding, Chis. I think I fully realize this. But neither should God’s testimony of Himself to mankind contain FALSE information especially information that REPRESENTS HIM. Really, how difficult would it have been for God to simply communicated to the writer (or editors) of Genesis 1-3, FROM THE GET GO, that there is NO SOLID STRUCTURE over the earth? Certainly He has the ability to communicate this doesn’t He? With all this omnipotent ability that God has, WHY would He simply let a FALSE notion be perpetuated? Didn’t God realize (or care) that our generation would see this description as nonsense? Does He not realize that people want a reliable document to base their life and faith on? Was Scripture only written for the generation in which it was produced? If that is the case then what are to we make of the idea that Scripture is given by “process” of PROVIDENCE? What does this say about the transcendence of Scripture for ALL generations, or God’s ability to insure that the Book that represents HIM is a VALID representation?
I don’t buy the analogy that Dr. Heiser uses that “It isn’t a lie to tell a toddler that the baby is growing in mommy’s tummy”. WHY? Because the parents HAVE NO INTENTION of allowing this description to be PERPETUATED throughout the life of the child!
Yet we see the God of the universe allowing nonsense about the world HE CREATED being PERPETUATED. A simple intervention at the time of the writing of Genesis would have quickly put to rest the nonsense of a “solid dome”. No scientific treatise is necessary, just a few simple word changes that actually jive with reality.
So then if the content of Genesis 1-2 is nonsense, then who’s to say that the content of Genesis 3 where the Fall is recorded isn’t likewise NONSENSE? And this particular “NONSENSE” contains SALVIFIC THEOLOGICAL INFORMATION (i.e the “seed of the woman to crush the head of the serpent”.)
Sorry, I am left more confused about the “authority” and “reliability” of Scripture than ever. I understand now why people abandon faith entirely.
Distilling this down for clarity sake, the matter for me comes down to the translation of the Hebrew word “raquia”.
So here is my question: Is the more correct translation of raquia “firmament” (which conveys “solid dome”) or is it “expanse” (which allows for the understanding of an “open heaven”).
Maybe I’m wrong here, but the OP seems to suggest that the correct (and ONLY) translation possibility for the Hebrew word “raquia” is “firmament” and NOT “expanse”. The reasoning proffered is that “solid dome” corresponds more correctly with ANE cosmological thought.
Perhaps “firmament” is more consistent with ANE cosmology, but WHOSE cosmology is being “telegraphed” in Genesis 1-3, ANE cosmology or God’s?
I can live with the answer “both”. But “solid dome” doesn’t seem to include that possibility.
If I’m misunderstanding Dr. Heiser on this, please help me understand what I’m NOT getting. I’m only asking about the translation of one word here (“raquia”).
No, it doesn’t come down to this word; it comes down to how it’s described with other words (see the PDF or the lecture).
Wow. What a debacle!
Re: “My guess is that flat earth theory leaders won’t care. They seek to build their own little fiefdoms of faithful, deluded followers. They want to be looked upon as gatekeepers of the truth.”
Your “guess” is quite accurate. The effort is to erect a sort-of firewall around a faith-group, using a point of absurdity to separate the group from those outside of it as well as driving a wedge between them and reality. It increases insularity by making the faith-group seem laughable to those outside of it. Derision of others confirms the self-righteousness of the group. And it discourages the group from stepping outside to verify anything.
Ultimately, as you say, the goal is to make the leader of the group into its sole arbiter of reality. It’s a tactic used by a lot of “cult” leaders. Teach something really bizarre, force members to latch onto it, wait until they’re derided and dismissed by outsiders, then tell them they’re unjustly condemned by the wickedness outside, then show them they can get comfort only from inside.
Another example of this (outside of traditional religions) which has become a bit notorious, is the Xenu crap taught to Scientologists who’ve progressed to a certain point in that “religion.”
Actually, this seems rather an obvious manipulation tactic. I’m surprised people like you have to point it out to people. And it’s ridiculous that you have to put up with abuse and accusations of “heresy” because you did.
… Just a little input from an insolent, cynical, skeptical, godless agnostic heathen.
@ Merrill. I suppose a good analogy is this,,,. Imagine God revealing himself for the first time, to a world that completely believed in evolution. What would be more important and helpful to God and humans in that situation? Convincing the world evolution is completely false, or convincing the world God is real and created everything?
God never claims the earth is flat, it is the humans that claim that, but the main important point is the attribute everything to God and not lesser gods. I find the message quite simple and fail to see how others can pervert it so much. Maybe grammar is an important subject?
The brain is hard wired to the gut. When the brain is on fire (stress, anxiety, arousal, etc.) the gut is active–sometimes painfully so. This is an example of the ancients responding to careful observation, and developing a theory about it.
Personally I believe the mind/soul has non-corporeal existence probably in a related but separate space-time location. Lots of reasons for that, but I seriously doubt the gut is the place!
Yes, that is exactly what they were recognizing, but of course the idea that the soul is in the gut would be unscientific…yet that is exactly what they thought. Their observations led to an unscientific conclusion. And yet it is in the Bible. And it is no big deal.
I think a point of clarity here is needed. When something is unscientific it doesn’t mean it is an “error” or a “lie”. It is just what those people honestly thought at that stage of human scientific development. They didn’t have it all figured out, but that is ok – the basic truth they were communicating is still true. That is true of everything Genesis itself says and/or is silent about. If God was going to make sure they got all the science right…would we even be able to comprehend it reading it here in the 21st Century? If He is going to go down that road, where would He stop?
If being not fully scientifically accurate is the standard for something being “inerrant”, then the Bible isn’t “inerrant”. But, that is not how I define inerrancy. God can allow the science to be “dumbed down” and therefore not fully accurate and still communicate the truth that He wanted communicated. Thus, the Bible can be unscientific and still inerrant, as long as you allow for scientific inaccuracies to exist within it’s pages that were observation-based honest assessments of reality that were still fundamentally flawed (scientifically speaking). Just don’t make the Bible have to be a science book.
We are kind of required by God to communicate what we understand to be true both scientifically and spiritually, with an honest spirit. This is why, if I see evolution staring me in the face in the scientific data, then I have to be open and honest about what I am observing – just like the writers of the Bible were about what they were observing EVEN THOUGH their conclusions were ultimately wrong. I would be sinning if I went on lying about what the evidence clearly shows. They too would have been in error had they not faithfully communicated the prevailing scientific thought of the day. Thus, for their day, they were not at all errant.
So yes, God let the Bible writers communicate their own understandings of science their own way b/c they were simply telling the truth as they saw/observed it, and therefore not communicating any error and certainly not lying – particularly to their own audience. On theological matters, God of course took that one over fully Himself. The Bible is a book of theology, it is not intended to be a book of science anyway.
But, even theologically, isn’t it having to dumb down it’s explanation of who God is? Is it being inaccurate when it does this? I think you could say – yes, something is not fully accurate until fully understood and explained. The problem is, improved accuracy can always be achieved, which is true of everything in life – even with respect to our understanding of God. The Bible even says that with reference to the things of God (and not science) – “we look through a glass dimly” (1 Cor 13:12 paraphrased).
Scientifically that is easy for us to see when comparing Bible “science” to modern science – they were really seeing things dimly back then and yet God gave them a “pass” on that. Theologically it is not such an obvious phenomenon, but even there it has to be going on and the scale of dumbing down is certainly exponentially greater on the theological side of it than even the scientific…if you just think about how far separated we are from what God is.
Dang. Why is this so hard to make clear. It is so crystal clear to me…
@Stephen DeNagy.
Correct it is called the “vegus nerve”.
In extreme cases death is possible.
http://www.vnsmessageboard.com/index.php?topic=4499.0
**CHALLENGE ISSUED**
I almost forgot… I once took an intro to astronomy class in college as an elective. It was amazing!
Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn are what are known as “naked eye planets”. Meaning you can see them in your backyard if you just look up at the night sky and know where to look. Mars is that star that has a reddish appearance in the southern sky.
With a beginners telescope in the range of $500-$850 you can actually see what these planets look like (i.e. their shape)! We actually had to this in my intro to astronomy class as an assignment So my challenge is this…
Go beg, borrow, or steal a beginners telescope and point it at Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn and tell me what shape they ALL have! Better yet, go to the nearest university, to their physics department, and ask to speak to an astronomy professor. I promise you if you tell them that you seriously believe in a flat earth they will personally show what these planets look like for free as public service.
In lieu of actually having the courage to test your demonstrably false claims that the earth is flat (lest your hard sky begin falling), I would HIGHLY encourage you to visit the following 3 sites:
http://www.nakedeyeplanets.com/mars-telescope.htm
Above link: In lieu of buying a telescope or having the cojones to ask a professor to visibly show you what these planets actually look like, this astronomer has been kind enough to post video these planets and what they look like through his telescope every night and even the seasons of Mars. That’s right, Mars has seasons. We know this because it has surface features that turn. They rotate out of sight and then return, constituting 1 year. “Flat planets” don’t do that just FYI.
http://www.smarterthanthat.com/astronomy/top-10-ways-to-know-the-earth-is-not-flat/
Above link: the top 10 ways we know the earth is not flat.
http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2011/09/21/who-discovered-the-earth-is-ro/
Above link: This is a really cool site that goes into HOW WE’VE KNOWN THE EARTH IS A SPHERE FOR OVER 2,000 YEARS. Spoiler alert… Eartosthenes of Cyrene (276 BC-195/194 BC) was the chief librarian at the Library of Alexandria and is the first guy to calculate the circumference of the round earth.
Again, please know that a spherical Earth is NOT a recent invention or conspiracy theory… it is over 2,000 years old!!! You are literally taking us back 2,000 years.
Lastly, here is the curvature of the earth as seen with the naked eye.
http://erezmarom.deviantart.com/art/Curvature-of-the-Earth-165243474
Having put this issue to rest… I’m done with it. I’m done talking about it. If you can’t bother to follow the links or ask someone, I don’t know what to tell you.
With Love,
Nathan
I, like SOME others, am somewhat agnostic on this issue. How? By actually swallowing hard and checking out the arguments. Shocking and compelling. But I did exactly as you said. So did most everyone else on this subject, except it seems those who call FE explorers dumb. We clicked links and spent a lot of time examining evidence presented to us. Many of us are now attempting to conduct our own scientific experiments to try to draw a “conclusion.” It hurts to have the foundations rattled but I’m willing to endure the pain while I pursue answers.
The things you put forth as evidence are compellingly countered hundreds or maybe thousands times. Perhaps you didn’t click any links?
@Christopher
Here you are again. I can see your intent.
This thread is not about whether “evolution” conflicts with the bible or not. Plenty of people ( Hugh Ross comes to mind ) argue the bible does not conflict with evolutionary theories.
Uniformitarianism, is actually a very old concept, and that view was not held by the biblical writers.
Did you know that Darwins cousin Francis Galton, was the founder of the eugenics movement.
Evolutionary belief is dangerous, and is promoted because it can,has and is used for the plan the Satan conspired to convince humans they are gods.
Evolution theory is inherently racist,, people like Helena Blavatsky knew this. We all need to evolve into our alien masters image,,? Evolution,enlightenment,transhumanism,kill off the less evolved (Africa comes to mind). It is all nonsense.
Kinda a false dichotomy here, you present it as either:
A. We reject concordism by saying the bible is wrong about cosmology, and take Genesis 1 as figurative, and only teaching theology, rather than being a 100% correct narrative of the creation of the world (as the traditional, concordist view holds).
B. We take every word in the bible 100% literally and believe the earth is flat, the entirety of a child comes from the father, that the sky is a dome (which is clearly not the teaching, I’m sorry Mike, but this is wrong “shamayim” refers to the sky, the biblical writers didn’t think it was solid) and that Jesus is a door.
Why can’t Genesis 1 be a poetic account of the creation of the world?
Why can’t the bible be both figurative and literal?
Why does it have to be textbook-literal or complete poetry, with nothing to say about reality?
Why can’t it teach both real facts about the natural world AND theology (those categories are both man-made concepts BTW)
Personally, I am a day-age creationist, and disagree with you and John Walton that the bible describes a flat, circular earth, or even that the biblical writers THOUGHT the earth was flat.The idea of a spherical earth has been around alot longer than people think, see “myth of the flat earth”.
I mean no disrespect (I love most of your work), but I really do not like non-concordist positions on the bible. I think it downgrades the doctrine of inerrancy, and grossly underestimates the holy spirit’s power to ensure there are no inaccuracies (period) in the bible.
Inerrancy has to be defined. There are at least a half dozen definitions. That’s just reality. It isn’t easy to spell what counts as an error. My view is the simplest — I honor God’s choices in who he used. It’s about affirming reality, both spiritual and natural.
Why don’t we just define it simply, everything the bible says is true. If Genesis says plants are created before sea life is created, that’s what really happened. This doesn’t somehow make the text incomprehensible to the israelite audience. I’m not saying the bible talks about quantum mechanics, genetics, relativity, etc.
I’m just saying that what is DOES say is true 100% of the time, regardless of what man-made category of knowledge we ascribe it’s truth-claim to (science, history, geography, theology, philosophy, etc.)
I think that’s alot simpler than your definition, which says only the “theology” in the bible is true, but it says wrong things about science.
To me it just seems like a cop-out against the allegations of so called “higher-critics” that the bible says that earth is flat, is 6000 years old, has a dome-sky, etc. Rather than disproving their interpretations (which in many cases can be done through basic logic).
I’m the one sticking to the text here with the Israelite cosmology. And it’s demonstrably untrue. The distinction between truth propositions and what a writer might have floating around in his head to use as vehicles for the proposition or not is an important one — and totally rational. You and I, for instance, will both have ideas that we believe true but aren’t. That’s because we’re not omniscient. And yet we can say things that are true. We can utter true propositions and use flawed illustrations or strategies for communication in proposing those true propositions. That’s called being human as well. And guess what? God used humans to produce the Bible.
Again, all completely comprehensible and rational. It was God who decided to use humans, and to use humans born at a certain time. I didn’t.
ANY Christian book on inspiration and inerrancy from ANY perspective will also demonstrate that defining an error isn’t easy. If I tell me toddler that mommy has a baby in her belly, did I err if I don’t give the toddler complete, exhaustive detail on the process of sexual procreation and the stages of embryonic development? Should I add a discourse on the anatomical distinction between the uterus and the stomach? If I don’t, is my information “true”? In what way? Is it “inerrant”? The Bible is filled with these sorts of things — language that comes from experience or observation, or approximation. Some people call such instances errors, some don’t. And that’s the tip of the iceberg. I could tell you that it’s easy, but then I’d be lying to you. We don’t do that here.
It would seem to me that there is a big (unjustified) leap of logic here. The statement you made about the “baby in mommies belly” is not untrue, it just lacks certain information. I never said the bible was an exhaustive resource for information about all topics.
But what I cannot accept is that the bible says things that are untrue (rather than saying nothing about an issue). For instance, you claim that Genesis 1 describes a flat earth, I would disagree that it does. If it did, it means the bible is describing something inaccurately.
I just don’t see the leap in logic from “the bible doesn’t talk about everything” and “the bible describes some things inaccurately”.
You know Dr. Heiser,
I don’t agree with you and I would never be that harsh or acrid to you.
There are many Christian brothers and sisters in Christ who believe the earth is flat or at least question the curvature of the earth. Some are just geocentric’s.
Christians who believe the earth is flat are not idiots. They are Christians who are on a quest for truth. We always ask others to prove us wrong. Research it yourself we often say. We have a lot of evidence that make us question the globe. Believe me, there are professionals from all over the world. Engenders Pilot’s Doctors, Researchers, Army, Navy Air-force. We have done experiment’s and have photographic evidence from NASA and armature rockets and balloons that show no curvature.
I am saddened that you would attack all of us without checking us out for your self. It breaks my heart because I respected you.
It breaks my heart that you believe something contrary to reality. That will drive people away from Scripture and Jesus, not toward them.
Then why can’t you see Antarctica from Greenland? It’s the perfectly flat ocean. Why is there a need for a “crows nest” on ships? Why do ships disappear over the horizon?
Let’s talk about military science for just a moment… I’m a former soldier. I’m assuming you’re not.
Fact: Long range marksmanship (including missles) must take into account **NOT ONLY THE CURVATURE OF THE EARTH BUT ALSO THE ROTATION OF THE EARTH**
Then why can’t you see Antarctica from Greenland? It’s the perfectly flat ocean. Why is there a need for a “crows nest” on ships? Why do ships disappear over the horizon?
Let’s talk about military science for just a moment… I’m a former soldier. I’m assuming you’re not.
Fact: Long range marksmanship (including missles) must take into account **NOT ONLY THE CURVATURE OF THE EARTH BUT ALSO THE ROTATION OF THE EARTH**
The point is that the statement is unscientific.
@ Alexander:
Alexander said, “If Genesis says plants are created before sea life is created, that’s what really happened.”
I’m glad you brought that up! Let’s take Genesis 1 & 2 very literally.
Genesis 1’s creation account is as follows:
Land –> Vegetation –> Animals –> Humankind
Genesis 2’s creation account is as follows:
Man–> Vegetation –> Animals
Please explain.
Genesis 4: Who was Cain’s wife? How did Cain build a city if there are only 4 people on the planet?
I’m still waiting for a response to Job 37:18 as well. Please don’t make claims and then not back them up.
Respectfully,
Nathan
@ Alexander:
Alexander says, ” that the sky is a dome (which is clearly not the teaching, I’m sorry Mike, but this is wrong “shamayim” refers to the sky, the biblical writers didn’t think it was solid)…”
Job 37:18
“Can you, like Him, spread out the skies,
hard as a cast metal mirror?” (ESV).
Guess we have to take Job out of the cannon since it’s clearly heretical.
@ Alexander:
Alexander says, ” that the sky is a dome (which is clearly not the teaching, I’m sorry Mike, but this is wrong “shamayim” refers to the sky, the biblical writers didn’t think it was solid)…”
Job 37:18
“Can you, like Him, spread out the skies,
hard as a cast metal mirror?” (ESV).
Guess we have to take Job out of the cannon since it’s clearly heretical.
Here is an chunk of an article by Rich Deem at a good website called “godandscience” on that very verse.
{ “Can you, with Him, spread out the skies, strong as a molten mirror?” (Job 37:18)
Out of context, it seems like an open and shut case that the Bible teaches that the skies are solid. However, there are some definite problems with the English translation of this verse. First, the Hebrew word shachaq,19 translated “skies” is probably a bad translation of the Hebrew. The usual word that would have been used for “sky” or “heaven” is shamayim.20 The meaning of the Hebrew word shachaq is usually “cloud” or “dust.”21 Looking at the context of Job 37, the entire beginning of the chapter is describing a violent storm.22 In three other instances within the same chapter, the word shachaq is translated as “cloud,” so it would make sense to translate it as “cloud” in this verse, also. The Hebrew word rei, translated “mirror,”23 is found nowhere else in the Old Testament, so its exact meaning remains uncertain. However, it is derived from the Hebrew word raah, which means “to appear” or “to see.”24 Further evidence that rei does not mean “mirror” comes from the Greek LXX translation of the Hebrew Old Testament (translated by the Jews into Greek during the 3rd to 1st centuries BC), where the translators used the Greek word horasis, which means “appearance.”25 From this information, we can come up with a much better translation that fits the context of the chapter:
“Can you, with Him, spread out the mighty clouds, with a molten appearance?” (Job 37:18)
This translation fits the context much better, since the entire first part of Job 37 is about a storm. In addition, the sky does not have a molten, flowing appearance, but clouds do. So, from the context, it is pretty obvious that this verse is referring to the appearance of clouds and not some solid “firmament.”}
It’s not a bad translation. The term is elsewhere used of hard objects.
Assuming that’s true, I don’t think that means it ALWAYS refers to solid objects. Otherwise, how would birds fly “in” the “firmament”. I do not think the bible describes a flat-domed earth.
wow. Birds fly under the firmament in the ancient mind, but anything above ground is “in” the heavens. Whew.
I’ll leave the Hebrew up to drmsh since he translated the entire OT for Logos version of the KJV…
What I will tell you is this:
The following was a disclaimer I used for my Bible study on Genesis 3. It is actually an excerpt from John Dominic Crossan’s book The First Christmas with SOME editing to relate the material to Genesis instead of the New Testament…
Which brings up an excellent point: how do you go about interpreting the Christmas narratives of Matthew and Luke???
Matthew has Jesus born in Bethlehem, fleeing to Egypt and settling in Nazareth out of fear of Herod’s son.
Luke tells us Mary and Joseph were FROM Nazareth and traveled to Bethlehem because of the census, after which they went home.
These two stories don’t line up. This is a problem for literalism. There’s POWER in their message don’t get me wrong, and so much power it brings me to tears thinking about it… but they are not historically factual like your Greco Roman mind NEEDS them to be. In fact I would argue to insist on their literalism robs them of their POWER… but that’s just me.
Not to mention the genealogies don’t add up.
How do you account for this???
I’ll leave you now with the excerpt from JDC’s The First Christmas:
First Christmas Excerpt
What kind of stories are these? What is their purpose? What did the author intend them to be? What is their literary genre? Are they fact or fable? For many people, Christians and non-Christians alike, these are the two choices. Either these stories reported events that actually happened or they are no better than fables. For most people today, fables do not matter much. They may be entertaining for children, but need not be taken seriously. Thus, it is important to realize there is a third option that moves beyond the choices of fact or fable.
The issue of the factuality of Genesis and the Bible in general is recent… the product of the last few hundred years. In earlier centuries their factuality was not a concern for Christians. Rather the truth of these stories, including their factual truth, was taken for granted. Their truth and the truth of the Bible as a whole was part of conventional wisdom much like basic science is a part of our conventional wisdom. It was just part of what everybody knew. Believing them to be true, including factually true, was effortless. Nobody worried about whether they were factually true. All of the interpretive focus was on their meaning.
Pre modern Christians and ancient Israelites didn’t require faith to believe in them. It was simply just the way things happened. We often come to know these stories as children. Most of us who grew up in the church took their factuality for granted when we were young children… just as people in the pre-modern Christian and ancient Israelite worlds did. We heard these stories in an early childhood state of mind known as pre-critical naiveté. In this stage we take it for granted that whatever the significant authority figures in our lives regard as true, is indeed true. Whether these stories are factual was not an issue.
Impact of the Enlightenment:
This pre-critical way of reading the Bible has become impossible in the modern world, both for Christians and non-Christians alike. The reason is the impact of the enlightenment, which began in the 17th century with the emergence of modern science and scientific ways of knowing. It generated a new period of western cultural history commonly called modernity. Modernity’s effect on the world has been enormous. Its technological achievements are the most obvious result. Of greatest importance to Biblical study, modernity has greatly affected how modern people think.
It produced what is called the modern mind – a mindset that shapes all our thinking. The enlightenment generated an understanding of truth and reality that is very different from that in the pre-modern world. In philosophical terms in generated a new epistemology and a new ontology. Epistemology focuses on how do we know, and what is true. Ontology focuses on what is real and what is possible.
Epistemology: The enlightenment has lead many people to believe that truth and factuality are the same. It’s mindset was and is the concerned with the distinction between truth and superstition. Truth and fable. Truth and traditional authority. Truth and belief. The primary basis for the distinction the modern scientific method of knowing, with its emphasis on experimentation and verification.
The result has become: truth is what can be verified and conversely if it can’t be verified then it cannot serve as truth. What can be verified of course, are facts. This has become known as fact fundamentalism. Both believers and non-believers worship at the church of fact fundamentalism and they are locked in heated, often bitter debates using facts to either prove or disprove the Bible. We saw this with Genesis 1 and ancient cosmology vs. modern cosmology.
According to fact fundamentalism: if something isn’t factual, it isn’t true. Fact fundamentalism has impacted Christians as well as those who are skeptical of religion all together, and Christianity in particular. Many in both camps, believers and non-believers, believe that a statement is true only if it is factual.
Among American Christians, this is a major reason why at least half affirm a literal, factual understanding of the Genesis stories of creation and of the Bible as a whole. In their minds, if these stories aren’t factual, then they are not true. And the Bible itself is not true. Christian biblical literalism is about biblical factuality. And it is rooted in fact fundamentalism. As such it is not ancient, but a product of the recent past.
Ontology: The enlightenment had an additional effect. The modern mind is shaped, not only by fact fundamentalism, but by a world view, an image of reality of what is real and what is possible. A big picture of the way things are vs. the way things used to be. With the enlightenment came a world view very different from pre-modern world views. This world view is a new ontology (what is real and what is possible).
Within the modern world view, what is real is the space time universe of matter and energy, operating in accord with the natural laws of cause and effect. This world view of what is real and what is possible has shaped everybody that lives in the modern world. Even those who reject it.
We internalize it because we are socialized into it. It effects believers and non-believers alike. It’s view of what is real and what is possible makes the central claims of religion questionable. We don’t know what to do with claims about a non-material reality, claims about a spiritual reality, or claims about God. Prior to the enlightenment the reality of God was taken for granted. It didn’t require belief because God was seen as more real than the world. But the enlightenment reverses this. This world of matter and energy is what seems real and the world of God has become questionable.
Consequently, the modern world is going to take a skeptical view on Biblical topics: Do things like supernatural interventions actually happen? Are they even possible? Etc. etc.
Christian responses to the Modern Worldview in relation to the Bible:
Christian’s have responded in more than one way to the impact of the enlightenment on the stories contained within the Bible…
Conscious Literalism: The most public group insists on their factuality. “In spite of the doubts generated by the modern world view, this camp wears literalism as a badge of honor. Earth was created in 7 days. Animals and people were created on Day 6, therefore people and dinosaurs roamed the earth at the same time. To critique this camp only emboldens them as they see it as suffering for their faith” (My words for the Bible study not Crossan’s)
Conscious literalism is very different from the taken for granted literalism of our pre-modern ancestors. They actually acknowledge that the events in these stories are hard to believe, and yet insist with varying degrees of intensity, that they are factual. Conscious literalism is modern. Grounded in the fact fundamentalism of the enlightenment. These Christians counter the notions that spectacular events found in the Bible don’t happen… by affirming that they are supernatural interventions by God and that because God is all powerful, to doubt their factuality is to doubt the power of God.
Defending the Bible against the notion that at least some of the stories in the Bible are fables, legends, or symbolic is their primary mission.
Here it is important to note that both biblical literalist and modern skeptics agree… if these stories aren’t factual, they aren’t true. And if they aren’t factual, then the Bible and Christianity aren’t true.
The other camp of Christian believers reject the notion that the truth of Christianity is dependent upon the factuality of these stories.
They are open to skepticism and are aware of some of the problems associated with taking these stories literally, but uncertainty of the stories doesn’t lead them to a rejection of the Bible and Christianity as a whole. They are unsure of what to make of the stories but they aren’t going to throw the baby out with the bathwater so to speak. If they aren’t factual, what are they? Imaginative? Are they just another ancient fable? Or is there an alternative way of seeing them? [Crossan, First Christmas, some editorial liberties taken].
Finally, John Walton…
“Mythology in the ancient world was like science in our modern world—it was their explanation of how the world came into being and how it worked. The gods had purposes, and their activities were the causes of what humans experienced as effects. In contrast, our modern scientific approach attempts to understand cause and effect based on natural laws. Mythology is thus a window into culture. It reflects the worldview and values of the culture that forged it. For ancient Israelite culture, many of the writings we find in the OT performed the same function as mythology did in other cultures… When we read the mythology of the ANE, we discover how these ancient peoples thought about themselves, their world, and their gods. When we read Genesis, we see how Israelites thought about themselves, their world, and their God. Whether the Israelite views were the same as their neighbors, as they sometimes were, or diametrically opposed, there is value in the comparison.” (Walton, NIV Commentary p.27)
With love,
Nathan
Nathan: I really enjoyed this response. Recalls to mind some of what I learned from “Misreading Scripture with Western Eyes” by O’Brien. Thoughtful and thought-provoking. It’s a shame that American pulpits aren’t equipping their people to read scripture this way. It’s time we “repent” (change our thinking.)
Are you serious right now or are you trolling?
I sure hope you’re not eating shellfish or wearing blended clothing you abomination.
@Alexander
I think the problem is, you do not seem to have a grasp on ancient cosmology. It was not just the Hebrews that thought the earth was plate like, but many other ancient cultures too.
The bible being truth, means it has to have recorded history correctly (even if that history is scientifically wrong).
Why don’t you provide a peer reviewed paper that proves any ancient culture held the view of a spherical earth.
Mikes latest podcast shows that a woman’s hair was thought of as part of her genitals,,so is that belief any different than the belief of a flat earth? If so prove it!
We need to understand that biblical culture was inspired, but no where in the bible does it state, the scriptures are “scientific infallible fact”. I mean just imagine it, God says to Moses, ‘here is the inner workings of the genome and here this is how quantum physics work’ then Moses repeats that to the Israelite crowd. It just does not work.
Thanks for jumping in, Dr. Mike! Part of the flat earthers’ error is to propose a far more complex solution to explain elegant reality. That makes God out to be a deceiver.
A spherical earth explains everything nicely. Flat earthers propose an infinitely more complex solution to a solve problem that does not exist.
My favorite “proof” of theirs is the lack of a curved horizon garbage: “why can’t you see the curvature of the earth in an airplane?” Well, because from our vantage point at elevation, our sight lines scribe a circular horizon upon the spherical earth, which will appear level and not curved (mountain ranges excepted. Imagine dropping a cone on a globe. The edge of the cone will scribe a circle. The apex of the cone is your vantage point. The horizon of the cone will appear to be flat and level. The part of the globe that bulges up will appear closer, and the horizon will appear farther away. Gee, just like reality! Just like in an airplane!
Sheesh!! Now THIS garbage really makes these Christians–and the rest of us by extension, look really dumb!
The Lynch paper (i.e., http://thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf)disagrees with you, and concludes with the following:
”Photographically, curvature may be measurable as low as 20,000 ft.”
so where’s the dome? How do we get meteors? etc. Curvature is just a common illustration — and just because you can see it at 20K feet doesn’t mean it hasn’t been photographed from space. Logic check.
Dude — there’s no solid dome up there.
I never thought it could happen like this…but this is an example of being given over to a strong delusion!
Wow! Finally I got through all the comments. I replied to the ones I could be bothered with.
I think many of the disciples of FE teachers, are actually really genuine and are led astray by the “leaders” of the FE faith. I do not believe in dinosaurs, but I never debate the topic from a religious point of view, because that would cast me as one of those “crazy Christians”, and that is not a good look for representing God. On the other hand I am not an apologetic. I will not try to fit scripture to accommodate advancements in science.
I actually think that trying to place any sort of human perceptual restriction on God and his ways, is just ignorant and illogical.
Mike,
Perhaps when you go to Boulder,CO you can pay a visit to the “Distinguished Professor Daniel Baker, director of CU-Boulder’s Laboratory for Atmospheric and Space Physics (LASP”, who is quoted as saying the following regarding “killer electrons” hitting the earth:
“It’s almost like theses electrons are running into a glass wall in space… Somewhat like the shields created by force fields on Star Trek that were used to repel alien weapons, we are seeing an invisible shield blocking these electrons. It’s an extremely puzzling phenomenon.”
http://www.colorado.edu/news/releases/2014/11/26/star-trek-invisible-shield-found-thousands-miles-above-earth
Could these be your missing pieces of glass?
http://www.wildheretic.com/there-is-glass-in-the-sky/#E
Right, an invisible but visible solid firmament — and don’t forget, the Bible says it’s “hard a solid brass.” With stars afixed to it. And where are the edges of the round earth located.
What do you want to bet the professor doesn’t believe in a flat earth?
I have always *THEORIZED* they actually come from when “the fountains of the deep” broke open. Something to ponder? https://youtu.be/sD9ZGt9UA-U
The hydroplate theory is based on a the geophysics of a globe, not a flat earth.
Maybe it works on a Pear, Convex, Concave & Oblate Spheroid etc?
I am glad that you have spoken up to clear your name, I have been livid over the accusations as I am very grateful to both yourself and Dr Walton for your ANE and Biblical studies. It is horrid to think that anyone would toy around with your reputation solely to promote an agenda. And yet, this is the natural consequence of teaching Scripture as a science book – as though science is somehow important (speaking as a chemist here) in the whole scheme of our spiritual lives, more important than the revelation of the character of God.
It comes with the turf. This is one reason why real scholars don’t get involved with fringe topics. Their work can be abused. But I’d rather be involved than not.
Amen!
Thank you man…
Thank you drmsh for getting involved! This type of thinking can only thrive when scholars don’t engage.
“Jesus loves you and wants to be your Lord and Savior… btw the earth is flat! ‘Merica!”
The clear need for this post makes me sad.
Makes me sad, too. This is a good illustration of why many scholars will not engage “Christian Middle Earth” – it’s a waste of time to them and they risk their work and words being distorted and abused.
I’m sure that practically any individual investigating the flat-earth model which quotes from Heiser’s work realizes that Heiser doesn’t believe in a flat earth—that fact is so blatantly obvious. The reason that his material is used by flat-earth investigators is because it’s refreshing to witness a clear and honest presentation of that which Scripture truly presents (i.e., a flat earth) since so many ministers and ministries (such as Answers in Genesis) attempt to teach the modern heliocentric paradigm from Scripture. Even though he’s a liberal theologian, he’s still getting the word out about what Scripture truly presents. Whether or not he chooses to take the liberal route on the matter and state that Scripture is only about “theological messaging” is immaterial—the fact remains that Scripture presents a flat earth, and this expert acknowledges such. Hopefully this will begin to wake up some Answers in Genesis fans, because so many people today are still attempting to teach the modern heliocentric paradigm from Scripture. They need to realize that the only way that they can continue to hold that view is to become liberal as well, instead of twisting Scripture to say what it does not actually say.
I do not agree with your conclusions, nor the condescending spirit in which you speak, but I do respect your integrity in admitting that the scriptures do describe a circular, domed flat earth if taken literally.
While there are clear-cut cases of scriptural allegory, to take our liberties with allegorizing is a true Pandora’s box. There are scriptures that you take literally, yet some scholar or theologian more liberal than yourself may allegorize those same scriptures to your disgust. So where do we draw the line?
There is a whole lot more to the FE argument than what you have addressed. Wisdom admonishes you to understand first, then rebuke.
Sometimes tough love is necessary. I see no reason to blow kisses at an idea that is demonstrably false and will lead many to conclude the gospel isn’t worth even thinking about since it will get linked to such nonsense.
I believe in tough love too, so I will say this. Your reply to my post reveals your heart in this matter. You are more concerned with how people perceive you than whether or not you are speaking the truth. If you will be dead honest, you fear the social stigma of FE so much that you will not even give this a fair shake. That is called worldly compromise.
The Most High is going to destroy the wisdom of the wise and bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is that going to leave you, Doctor?
No, I’m concerned that people aren’t driven from the gospel. You can psychologize someone else. I was pretty transparent in the post and am so now. It’s simple. Nathan’s comment illustrates the point.
@Hiram
Why go all ad-hominem , why not just provide your evidence? Is it because you have nothing that will stand up to the scrutiny of logical people?
This comment is what is called baiting.Eye-rollingly obvious at that. I’m glad Dr. Heiser didn’t take it.
One aspect of the Old testament cosmology, it is not as far off as one would think at first, and it surely cannot be applied to the Flat Earthers.
– The flat earth theory has the sun (A) circling some 3000 miles above the earth, and ye, the moon is also its own light source,(B)in its model there is night and day in the 24 hour Known world.
– The OT cosmology is not even a lie if you take it for its relative terms. Here in opposition to the flat earth the (A) Sun Goes down at west, into the deep and rises at the east the next morning. (B) it is all dark in their known world until the Sun rises again.
That is contrast number one.
And frankly the OT model is not all false, if you take a segment out of the earth say the size of America, but in the ANE culture, the Sun goes down and there is all dark in the land. In its relative term fair enough, since they did not reach all around the globe, the sun went into the great deep and rose on the other side. It simply describes what they felt and saw.
The other frantic about the Flat Earthers, is in their conspiracy mode, that by replacing the earth as the center of the universe, for the sun as the center for our solar system ie heliocentric, – comes from the pagan Sun worship cults, who then moved into the Christian culture and science to deceive us, and alot more into this rabbit hole.
Dr Mike, you said:
I think this is too far a stretch. I don’t know of any 24-hour or “young earth” creationists who argue for this point about scientific knowledge.
It is unnecessary to the basic thesis that God’s Word is trustworthy from verse 1, is consonant with and does not contradict operational scientific knowledge (whereas it does contradict the Darwinian evolutionary worldview, and rightly so).
I do know that the Bible and the people within it use a “phenomenological viewpoint” to describe reality, that is taking a view as an everyday person would. To illustrate, even astronomers still talk of “sunrise” and “sunset” even though the strict scientific fact is that the Earth rotates on its axis, and orbits elliptically around the Sun.
This perspective as first person eyewitness does not preclude an accurate and “scientific” understanding that the Earth is a globe, inferred from various factors such as the way ships “disappear” over the horizon hull first and masts last.
PS: Your “Submit Comment” button is almost invisible – nearly indistinguishable from its background.
I had to guess its position based on my previous experience.
Holy crap, Mike…that’s some scary stuff!
it’s part of the theme design, so there’s not much I can do about that.
Dr. Heiser your knowledge of the Bible is unquestionably very very high, did you in your lifetime ever change or modify your interpretation of what the Bible teach? I personally am very thankful to you for your many videos, podcast and articles that I draw upon to study the Word of God. I listen but I read even more carefully and some times disagree with your belief for example – soul as a entity. Eve was not created same way as Adam, she came from Adam her spirit of life was transmitted via the blood of the rib, God did not breathe into her. Why the Bible is so very meticulous that only man begets. Only God is eternal immortal. Nothing created by God is immortal even some sons of God will eventually die, immortality is always conditional. Satan -cherub, nephilim -spirits, all that their name is blotted out in the book of life will die. Please think about this, we do not know everything and our interpretation of the Bible could be faulty. Excuse and forgive those followers of Christ Jesus that abuse your presentations with out disclaimer however, science knowledge is never to be equaled or put above God, YHWH knowledge. God Bless, brother in Christ Joe
I am shocked by the arrogance you are displaying Dr. Heiser. Your pride is so strong that you have done zero research into what the people you repeatedly mock believe. If you had, you wouldn’t of used examples that had been answered months ago. Please use your God given talents to look into the topic. At worst, you will see deliberately fraudulent information being put out by NASA to cause division in the public.
Get used to being shocked then. The truth does that to some people. If you think I’m going to apologize for thinking clearly, think again.
Sometimes being very direct is needed. You’re now a living illustration of that on this blog. I wish it weren’t necessary. I’m not the one that tried to mislead people using someone else’s work, am I?
Have you done any research into the topic?
Your pride doesn’t remind me of Jesus. But it does remind me of another spiritual being.
Yes. I use cell phones. I’ve flown over the top of the round earth on a trip to Europe.
I’m still looking for pieces of the dome over the earth per Israelite cosmology — the pieces that would be there once meteors crashed through.
Jesus would tell people the truth. I suppose I could call flat-earthers a generation of vipers, but that would be too much, despite the fact that their teaching kills the message of the gospel in the minds of anyone who would associate the gospel with such nonsense.
…vipers…
YES! That is exactly what I thought when I heard from one of these guys on Canary Cry Radio. He was quite condescending, and brushed aside critique too easily. He was high on enthusiasm, and low on rational facts. From the pit!
@Chuck
I have looked into the subject arguments.
The flat earth model is easily proven false, with basic scientific methods that can be done by anyone at home.
So what if NASA lies about things.
So far the comments on this thread from the FE people, to answer any scientific questions that are posed, and fail to provide any evidence or logic. Why post a link? Are they so inept they can’t actually figure the logic for themselves, so therefore just post links to “crackpot pseudo science”?
I’m not sure what the point is. I’ve never said any created thing had unconditional existence. There’s also nothing in the text of Genesis that has Eve getting her soul through Adam’s blood — ??
I was gonna comment here rather than Facebook assuming this was a safe place away from the uproar you created with your post denying flat-earth theory. However, I was wrong. They are in this place as well. Is it a virus? Is it contagious? Is it airborne? What the hell is happening? I can’t believe I’m even addressing this as a possible debatable issue. It’s like the Walking Dead….HEY maybe that’s the origin of the virus on the show. It started with 1 flat earther, his brain melted, went for a walkabout to find the earth’s edge and along the way shared his theory that the earth was flat, infecting the masses along the way. Knew it!
Right?!?!
BK gets it… why doesn’t anybody else?
I thought the previous post on 1 Corinthians 11 and a woman’s hair being considered female genitalia back in the day was going to be the controversial post… it only got 9 comments! We now live in a world where a post about how the earth isn’t flat is UP FOR DEBATE!!!
I feel like I’ve taken crazy pills!
I weep for the future of this country.
This is the sad state of one wing of Christian Middle Earth.
Have you considered the inconsistency of this presentation? You are blatantly calling flat earth believers “dumb” (more than 15 times). You acknowledge that the Bible presents the earth as flat, but those who believe it are “stupid?” I understand your position, but I wonder if you label everyone who takes literal theological positions in this same demeanor? Are those that defend a spherical model from Scripture (such as Answers In Genesis) stupid too? Have you considered that your judgment may be based more on cultural indoctrination rather than objectivity?
The phrase I use is “modern belief” in a flat earth. If you believe the earth is flat TODAY, that’s dumb.
“DUMB”? Hmmm…obviously this conversation is over because one of these people have actually done their DUMB homework and has been given eyes to see and ears to hear through the madness of the teachings of the world. Sorry, Doc….but you just looked REALLY “unlearned”. Maybe nobody has presented you with evidence yet. Must be a big podium to climb to get through to you….and is a white lab coat required to show you the curvature of water formula doesn’t exist and NASA was formed from esoteric/occult foundations? Just wondering. Enjoy the sci-fi shows NASA keeps giving us. Bet you haven’t done a lick of research on this subject to understand the absurdity of the morons who could think so pathetically, huh? Geeewizzz, and to think someone can see across Lake Michigan from the sands of Michigan and see Chicago over 50 miles away that SHOULD BE over 1,667 feet below the horizon….or that the Suez Canal which runs around 100 miles connecting the Mediterranean and Red Seas without any locks stays LEVEL the whole time? But you believe NASA? LoL…..yeeeeaaaaah. What’s up, doc? Hahahaha…I love it when pompous scholars “think” they are smarter than they are. Oh, the humbling is coming.
You serve the religion of science very well, Dr. Hubris. Obnoxiously rude arrogance is not tough love. Since it is obvious your intention is to insult rather than exhort, you will not convince anyone who thinks differently than yourself. A sad waste of time.
Should I have imitated Jesus and called flat earthers a generation of vipers, since their nonsense drives people away from embracing Christ?
Hmmmm.
Thanks for the compelling logic.
@Rick
Dude, you making a claim, is not science and proves nothing.
Provide the science! It is a weak argument to say someone can see something from a certain distance, therefore ‘ you are wrong and I am right.
Again you say something about NASA being formed from esoteric thinking, but provide no evidence.
Come to NZ you can take a private flight around Antarctica.
Well said; his humbling is forthcoming. Seems Mr. Heiser is believing in himself a bit too much.
Right. We’re all humbled by the cogency of flat earth thinking. Made me laugh. Wish I could reward you!
Have you bothered to do any investigation before labeling your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ as retarded? Sure, you wrote and article, but so can any one on earth with Wifi. What expertise in this area do you have? Have you conducted any experiments? Have you used a laser to measure the curvature? Did you ever wonder HOW they were able to send radio signals across the Atlantic Ocean before “satellites” were even considered a hypothesis?
The Bible states to PROVE all things, and hold fast to that which is good. So, if we test something (that you have not) and we come to a different conclusion, we are dumb? Or are we doing what is biblical? I understand where you are coming from. When I first heard of this, I spit up my coffee I laughed so hard. Then I actually spent 10 minutes looking into it, and had a whole lot more questions than answers. Either way, your portrayal of your fellow brethren is not Christ like. Good to know that a ministers of Christ is calling his brothers and sisters stupid because he disagrees with them, and never bothered to conduct a single test. Good day, and God Bless
I didn’t and wouldn’t use the word retard. That problem isn’t willful.
Where’s the dome? Where are the pieces of the dome over the earth per Israelite cosmology — the pieces that would be there once meteors crashed through. The Bible tells you your hair is part of having babies, and that human persons can exist in men. Do you believe that as well? Why not be consistent?
Concaver “Lord Steven Christ” called a head Scientist of NASA and was joined by his associate. He brought the Glass Sky Falling the size of buses issue up. It’s a REAL Phenomena. 2 weeks later he called him back completely drunk. He ruined his paradigm. HAHAHAHHAHA!
not sure what this even means, but comment approved.
People are using your videos on OT cosmology to DEFEND the flat earth idea.
I know. I blogged about it here a couple months ago and had my faith in the Church taken down a few notches by the responses.
I can’t blame either of you…
*I’m* responsible for this song parody I instantly tried to write when I saw your last posts (2).
“I’m a Frisbie girl
In a Fribie world
It’s flat-tastic! ”
I’m stuck.
Next line begs “spastic” but I’m fightin’ it…
you two need to be cooking up the next podcast.
Thanks/Best.
Some good scientific responses to send them http://edward-t-babinski.blogspot.com/2016/03/flat-earth-folly-by-dave-matson-guest.html
Thanks – I will save those for the future post (something in the works). But it will likely not matter to them. I don’t think anything would. When you determine in your heart to resist reason and data, there isn’t much someone else can do.
Hey mike, I came across a new one today,, “the earth is not flat , but it is not spinning”. The thing I find amazing is how the flat earth idea gets passed on, so that now we have people who do not believe in the bible, but believe in the flat earth.
I do not believe in “dinosaurs” and that probably makes me crazy, but my research on the subject has presented some very hard to answer questions.
The ancient people of Greece used common bones like whale and elephant, but re assembled them to portray mythical creatures from the culture of the time. I am convinced modern culture (even with its modern science) is doing the same.
Q:1
Why are there no discoveries of “dinosaur” bones from ancient times? Surely these “ancient” people would have been mystified by a complete T-Rex skull, and would have at least recorded such a find in oral history?
Q:2
Why does the phenomena of “dinosaurs” so closely relate to the time when evolution and eugenics were considered inseparable?
Q:3
Why do “dinosaurs” play an almost equal part in blockbuster movies to “aliens”?
Q:4
Why are the “experts” on the subject always having to re-design their theories on how “dinosaurs” were physically possible?
Q:5
If there is mtDNA from “dinosaurs” then why is there no genome mapping for the supposed finds?
I didn’t take from Dr. Mike’s post that he is calling flat earthers dumb, rather the idea is dumb, stupid, simpleminded, unthinking, obtuse etc. Much like criticizing the LDS (Mormon) theology for believing God the Father lives within his creation on an actual terrestrial planet called Kolob, thus making the Mormon god an authentic Extra Terrestrial. I mean, that’s just utterly idiotic.
“…any dumber?”
Tip o’ the iceberg,
my very good soul;
tip o’ iceberg.
Only appropriate response is,
“They should have left TV black and white like God and intended.”
Best.
The Flat Earth Society is 21st century lunacy and there is no reasoning with someone who is 5150.
DON’T FEED THE TROLLS
Don’t worry. I’m done with the topic. I won’t allow the nonsense to accumulate on the site in comments, either. People can use Google to find the nonsense.
Hey Mike, I said something to you about the flat earthers rearing their delusional heads again, sorry if that comment caused you to blog about the subject.
There are obviously lots of people who read your blog, that believe this “drivel” LOL.
I suppose I was hoping for some good scientific debate on the subject. It is sad that the movement has so much momentum in an age where it should not.
I think the main problem with the FE view, is it pulls (I believe genuine believers) into a very conspiratorial view of the world we live in, and while I do think there are conspiracies, focusing on them and using lies to propagate fear and confusion in Christians is ,I believe damaging to the church.
Beware NASA is Satan. LOL. That type of thinking is anti-intellectual,, and there is already enough stupid people on this earth.
Question: Young Earth Creationism is is based on the assumption of biblical literalism. Ken Ham, Al Mohler, Eric Hovie and other creationists have found clever ways to escape the geocentric and even flat-earth implications of their biblical literalism. So why do the geocentric verses in the Bible fall outside their commitment to literalism?
Christians who believe Yeshua walked on water: does it get any dumber than this? Christians who believe Yeshua rose from the dead: does it get any dumber than this? See where I’m going?
Actually, no, since I’m not in the habit of treating different categories of things as though they were the same.
You’re making excuses. That was a perfectly valid point. Walking on water and rising from the dead are both “demonstrably false”, yet you and I believe it. The same people whose “scientific evidence” you trust are the same people who mock your faith. You can’t have it both ways.
See the earlier notes about confusing miracles with the way things are in the natural world. I’ve posted comments twice now on that, and don’t care to do it again. You’re committing the fallacy (unwittingly, I believe) of category confusion.
Also, I would emphasize the type of literature that we are getting the account of Jesus’ life and miracles from. Jesus walking on water and rising from the dead comes from pure eyewitness testimony, that being the genre of the literature in which we find these accounts. That is why we have up to 4 accounts (at least 3 in most cases) of any given event in Christ’s life. So, if we have decided that the eyewitness testimony is trustworthy (and, I have decided this personally), then belief on these things is not based upon science (this is untestable scientifically) but rather upon faith in the eyewitness testimony.
Now, the scientific discussion that we have been having has not been based upon the eyewitness testimony of Bible writers. Rather, it is based upon the general view of the cosmos that the culture of the day recognized (by both pagan and believer alike) and not any particular singular eyewitness event. Thus, it is only natural for such a cosmological worldview to come out in a book produced in the ANE culture. Their cosmology wouldn’t be “right” or “wrong” so much as simply defined by the prevailing ideas of their day – the truth claim really not being in the cosmology but rather the theology that is being couched within that cosmology. It is therefore safe to ignore the cosmology of their day (as far as believing in it) when reading that kind of material (for, that isn’t the primary messaging intended), for again that was just a belief of their culture in general and not a specific God-inspired new truth-claim (i.e., God didn’t inspire their culture). But, the eyewitness testimony of the gospels IS a God-inspired truth claim that we ARE required to believe. This is why taking into account literary genre is so important.
Haven’t you ever studied the Bible? Don’t you start with this when studying it? First – what is the genre. Second – who is the author. Third – who is the audience. Fourth – what are the grammatical-historical relevancies that I need to keep in mind when reading this text….etc….
@Jay
Are you one of those sacred name peoples?
Jesus walking on water, is completely different than ancient cosmological views.
The sky is green,, no it is not, the petrol station is busy.
Get where I am going?
I believe in a FE just as much as I believe in Santa Claus, they’re both incredible real!!!!!
I have seen a fair share of FE content. I have also seen Dr. Heiser’s work and lectures referenced in the FE content. Not once was I ever led to believe that Dr. Heiser believes in a flat Earth. Never. Ever. In fact, it was emphatically stated that Dr. Heiser does NOT believe in a flat Earth. I have only seen Dr. Heiser being represented as a man who teaches that the writers of the Bible wrote from the perspective that the Earth is flat but that he himself does not believe the Earth is flat. It was very clear that he believes in a globe. I understand that Dr. Heiser might not want to be referenced flat Earth videos. That it is distasteful to him. But, that does not mean that he is being referenced incorrectly or that his work is being misrepresented. I would like to see such an example of the supposed misrepresentation, because I have yet to.
I am not being presented with clarity. Trust me, I only posted after I got tired of the “do you believe this?” emails. Had a disclaimer been made up front, I doubt that would have happened.
Honestly, I think the people promoting this wanted to draw me in so they could get web traffic, too. That’s why I’m not posting any leader names, nor will I approve any comments with names in them. They don’t deserve the traffic.
I am sorry you feel you have not been represented clearly. I can only speak for me but, after listening to the few videos/podcasts that I have seen reference your work, your position was never unclear to me. I thought you were very accurately portrayed.
I am sure you were not being used for web traffic. It was your honest view of the scriptures concerning the Earth that was of value to him. You seem to be the one getting the extra web traffic. 🙂
Mike, reading the comments (as I’m sure you can imagine) is both educational, and shocking. I used to think the “Answers” crowd were “embarrassing” to those of us trying to take the Bible seriously and literally. Now, I’ve seen a side of folks that make the “Answers” folks look like college grads. I’m forced to conclude: they don’t want to do the hard work. They don’t want to question their presuppositions, or even their beliefs. They want to live in a nice, predictable “bubble” where their reality reigns supreme. (Though honestly, which of us hasn’t been there as some point, right?)
None even tried to answer your questions, rather, take you to task for not doing in-depth research on their stuff.
I actually looked at a few of the links provided: none actually advanced a rational understanding of anything except a spherical planet. But lots of name-calling from these folks. Makes me wonder how many have taken a logic course in a college or university setting.
I’m also surprised at those calling you liberal. They obviously haven’t read through your work, nor are they familiar with who you are. (But if it makes them feel better…)
Thanks for the hard work here, Mike. Glad you’ve grown some thicker skin!
thanks!
Respectfully, No flat earther begins looking at the observable scientific evidence hoping or expecting to be convinced the earth is flat. with the slightest lack of bias the overwhelming amount of evidence becomes apparent. science caused me to reexamine the scriptures, and I was delighted to find that God was right all along. There is no biblical suggestion of a helio-centric ball, and there is no scientific evidence of it either. The ONLY reason to believe in a helio-centric ball is willful ignorance.
@ c
There is plenty of evidence for a spherical earth, and no evidence what so ever for a flat earth.
I don’t need flat earth nonsense to get web traffic. And I wouldn’t want that kind of web traffic.
Scientifically speaking, there seems to be only one reason to believe that we live on a ball in a heliocentric universe… willful ignorance.
Biblically speaking, I can find no reason for a Christian to believe it.
Now there’s some science for you. Comments like these are awesome — they illustrate why my post was needed. Thanks!
@Chad
Again bro, stunning logic. Don’t stop please!
Dear biblical literalists,
Having been raised in your biblical literalism of the Southern Baptist tradition I can attest to the damage that fact fundamentalism can have on one’s faith once he or she encounters science and the resulting apostasy that follows. Fact fundamentalism stole 12 years of a relationship with God from me. As a result, I consider it my obligation to correct you, as lovingly as I know how, wherever I encounter you.
Please read the following…
“Imagistic thinking and representation would stand in contrast to scientific or analytical thinking. We can see the difference if we compare two visual representations of the night sky—one taken by the Hubble telescope, the other presented by Vincent van Gogh’s The Starry Night. People would never consider doing astronomy from the van Gogh and could not do so even if they wanted to; the image contains nothing of the composition or position of stars. At the same time, we would not say that it is a false depiction of the night sky. Visual artists depict the world imagistically, and we recognize that this depiction is independent of science but not independent of truth. The ancients apply this same imagistic conception to all genres of literature, including those that we cannot conceive of as anything other than scientific. Imagistic history, like that preserved in Genesis, is to history as the The Starry Night is to a Hubble photograph…
…Some might think consider the trees, the garden and the snake to be examples of imagistic thinking without thereby denying reality and truth to the account… When we put these elements in their ANE context and recognize the Israelite capacity, and even propensity, to think in imagistic terms, we may find that we gain a deeper understanding of important theological realities” (Walton, The Lost World of Adam & Eve p. 137-138).
The Bible is an iceberg. Meaning 90% of it’s meaning is beneath the surface. While the faith required for Biblical literalism is admirable, it’s just plain lazy and makes advancing the Church in the modern age impossible.
This means that Biblical literalism, not necessarily you personally, is a threat to advancing the Kingdom of God here on earth… because no one with an IQ above 50 is going take you seriously if you walk around telling everyone the earth is flat, or that plants (Day 3) were created before the Sun and Moon (Day 4).
Additionally, if you insist that modern science is found in Genesis then you have to explain why new evidence suggests that the Moon was perhaps formed after the Earth collided with another planet (google it). Assuming this new hypothesis becomes part of scientific understanding, how do we squeeze that into Genesis 1? Science changes over the years. Scripture doesn’t. To force scripture to accommodate whatever the modern scientific hypothesis is, is disrespectful to the text.
The authority of scripture lies in it’s original author, and it’s original audience. It is only by understanding those 2 things that we can understand the original meaning and how it applies to our modern lives.
With love,
Nathan
Thanks, Nathan. Maybe you’ll have more success injecting some sanity into this than I have. As I wrote to another commenter, I thought about calling the flat earthers a generation of vipers for damaging the gospel and driving people away from the kingdom. Perhaps that would be more Christ-like, since I’d be imitating Jesus. But it seemed too extreme. Your comment here from firsthand experience tells me maybe I should have done that.
Here, Here!!
I echo Nathan’s experience. The real tragedy here is that biblical hyper-literalism (as I like to call it) only destroys the advancement of the gospel. Christian hyper-literalism is a deception from the bowels of Hell, it deceives even the elect.
It is a tactic of Satan designed to ruin Christianity.
It makes people run to science and then atheism and away from the God of the Bible. ANE geocentric thinking is couched in 21st century pseudoscience (what a horrible combination) and then mixed with the gospel message (even worse). A normal level-headed nonbeliever when presented with all of this is then deceived into running away from Christianity, forced into that position. What a terrible thing. This is a serious matter and I am so thankful that Mike is taking the time to address it.
Well said Christopher! Well said. 100% agree with all of it.
Dr. Heiser, your smarts have made you prideful. Pride comes before a fall. Our God is all powerful and can do anything. There are so many mysteries in the bible, don’t act like you know everything. Mr. Skiba always thought the world was round too. He received a lot of emails too. Was he mean about it? No. He was humble and decided to look into the matter for himself. You should apologize to him for being so mean. Don’t let your pride make you forget that we are all on team Jesus and we are to be one in Christ.
Of course God can do anything (except sin and produce absurd self-contradictions). But that isn’t the issue. The question is, “Did God do X?” (Did God make a flat earth”). The answer is no. When we deny reality, we discredit God and his word.
Thank you sir. You dribble and you shoot… it’s worth a shot. I didn’t even know this was a thing until yesterday. It literally kept me up last night!
There’s not enough scotch in all the flat earth for this! I guess I need to go take the seams out of my clothes and pray to Yahweh that the serpent Apophis doesn’t swallow the sun tonight. I think I feel a headache coming on. No Tylenol for me… “Woman, cover thy hair and fetch my olive oil!”
The saddest thing is that there is no way these people are engaging the world with this twaddle! You can’t spread the gospel to an Atheist this way.
Thank you for all that you do Dr. Heiser!
LOL
You think it is silly, but when you start to look into it, the answer is not so clear cut. People don’t believe in Genesis and start to trade it off for a belief in evolution. It gets to a point where if you start questioning a lot of things in the bible….why believe any of it? Just throw it out all together. Jesus warns us of a great delusion. Even the elite could be blind to it. People put so much trust in science and indoctrinations of the media. If you took the time, you would discover NASA’s occult history and Jack Parsons of JPL and being involved in the OTO and Aleister Crowley and L. Ron Hubbard (creator of Scientology). You would discover NASA and their ties with Project Paperclip (not conspiracy, this is historical fact) and bringing countless Nazis into working for NASA. And how every person that has gone up into space has been a Freemason. You can look up Admiral Byrd and then The Antarctic Treaty. And start to question why it is under such heavy surveillance and limitations when just a while before, Admiral Byrd was say it was ripe with great natural resources. And the Treaty came about at a time when they weren’t concerned about the environment. You can look up the UN flag logo and start to question why they would use the flat earth map. You can look up project Dominic and operation fishbowl. People are putting so much trust in these organizations that have questionable pasts. Look up Freemasonry and it’s ties with Kabbalah and ancient mystery religions and Hermeticism. Albert Pike, Manly P Hall and their great esteem for Helena Blavatsky’s estoteric, Luciferian teachings. Look up Jesuit history and their oath. Look at blatant occult rituals and symbolism everywhere. Throughout the Vatican, throughout the USA. You can dismiss this all as conspiracy theory. You can go on dismissing people as stupid and crazy. But what if this is God trying to wake up his people from a great delusion? “Come out of her my people, lest you be parttakers of her sins.” I don’t care if you consider any of us as stupid or crazy. We see you as ignorant and misinformed and gullible yourself. The world is buying into the lies of antichrist daily and see themself as wise and trustworthy. Remember, God often reveals himself to the humble and faithful. Not the proud and wise. Perhaps you need to get off your high horse and start questioning if you are seeking God’s truth or the “wisdom” of man. Perhaps if you took the time to see the arguments of the people who believe in a flat earth, you would start to us your rational mind instead of shutting it off and believing every indoctrination these Luciferian worshipping organizations have spoonfed you. Instead of praying for these flat earthers to be stopped, perhaps you should be praying for God to let you know truth and not be mislead by the spirit of anichrist. Because I have prayed for truth, for a very long time and it has led me down this path. So before you start calling others stupid or ignorant, first question if you are in fact the one that is guilty of this.
absolute nonsense. It’s clear cut. I use cell phones. I’ve flown over the top of the round earth on a trip to Europe.
I’m still looking for pieces of the dome over the earth per Israelite cosmology — the pieces that would be there once meteors crashed through. The Bible tells you your hair is part of having babies, and that human persons can exist in men. Do you believe that as well? Rather than giving occult gibberish too much cred you should be asking yourself those sorts of questions — i.e.,, answering the items in the post.
I know this might make your brain explode but you can believe in both the point that Genesis is making AND evolution.
Veronica, use an airline App (like flight track for iOS). Find a flight from Australia to Chile or Argentina. Then use that App, or another (like Flightboard) to track the take off. Now, time the flight, looking in periodically. If the UN world map is right, that flight is many, many thousands of miles longer than published. When the plane lands, look at the duration, and use the estimated average speed to determine distance. Like, Quantas flight 27, Sydney to Santiago. They are 14 time zones apart, and the flight took off 1:18 PM GMT+11, landed 11:34 AM GMT-3. That was about a 13 hour flight, meaning that at 600 mph, they traveled about 7,800 miles. That is about 1/3 of what FE people assert for the flight because like on the UN map, the Antarctic’s ocean is grossly stretched and exaggerated, between 3:1 and 4:1. But, what about the nice people visiting Santiago from the Land Down Under (a much more romantic name that the FE version: The Land Over There)? Might they notice a 42 hour flight? Are there any planes that can fly that long? In response, FE people have said that there is some intentional deception in masking the reality of the flat earth, and they take “alternate routes.” FE will not engage these issues, but have other “facts.” The “facts” people typically muster are the odd observations that people make, like seeing Chicago across Lake Michigan, lack of visible round horizon, etc. But things that depend upon spherical navigation, like flying, firing missiles, piloting ships, etc., stubbornly demand a spherical earth. It’s stuff like this that gives conspiracy theories a bad name!
too much reality in this one!
@Veronica
I am from NZ so I know about the Antarctic treaty, it is not some conspiracy. I can fly a private plane around Antarctica without any permission. There are rules in place (just like in all countries) that are there for a reason. We do not want more foreign pests in NZ (bacteria micro-organisms etc) You have to have permission to undertake scientific studies on ground level in Antarctica and that is also for a good reason,,It is a pristine almost untouched part of the earth and its history.
Well put. I’m not seeing a lot of humility in “Dr. scholar” Heiser.
no, just telling the truth.
I don’t need to be humble about exposing error that leads people to reject Christ.
awesome post brother…deep respect
People who follow Christ believe in a lot of “dumb” things:
1. virgin birth
2. miracles
3. parting of the Red Sea
4. walking on water
5. resurrection from the dead
6. Adam and Eve
I can go on and on, but you get the point. We as Christians are called to believe many things that the “smarter” world at large finds foolish, but we do anyhow. If you believe in any of the above things MH, you may be “dumb” yourself.
No, you’re the one being dumb here. You confuse miracles from the result of the act of creation. Creation and these other things are acts of God — they transcend nature. But you’re confusing your false view (flat earth) of the natural world with acts of God. God didn’t create the earth flat. But even if he did, a flat world wouldn’t be miraculous. It would be the way nature is.
Again, you confuse acts that transcend creation the way it is with the natural world.
it’s classic category confusion.
You’re also blocked now. Your comments lower the intellectual content of the blog.
Leave it to Beaver…
Dr. Heiser, can you scientifically show me how Sampson got his strength through his hair? Should this be lumped in with your other references to ladies’ hair and people inside of people? Just because science hasn’t “proven” something, doesn’t mean it isn’t true. And God isn’t going to put something in the bible if it isn’t important. What about Abel’s blood crying to God? Mary got pregnant while a virgin. Balaam’s donkey was speaking to him. Should we not believe these things either?
You’re confusing miracles or divine intervention with people saying the NATURAL world was created a certain way. Interventions in the normal course of things and the normal course of things are two different categories. The shape of the earth isn’t a miracle. God’s act of creation is miraculous. The argument here is the RESULT of the creative act, not the creative act. The result wasn’t / isn’t a flat earth. The earth is round. The biblical writers just didn’t know that, and God saw no reason to correct their vocabulary.
People are missing that my view is actually a compelling apologetic against biblical critics. My view produces this approach to someone who criticizes the Bible for its (non) science: “Why are you criticizing the Bible for not being what it was never intended to be? Are you mad at your dog for not being a cat? Your son for not being your daughter? If you can explain to me how criticizing a thing for not being what it was never intended to be makes ANY intellectual sense, then we can talk. But until you do that, what you’re saying is stupid.”
You can’t believe how disarming that is, especially since I’m serious about demanding the critic make sense to me — and explain why interpreting OUT OF CONTEXT makes sense.
Amen.
“When you take the ‘text’ out of ‘context’… all you’re left with is a con!” Frank Friedman
If you can explain to me how criticizing a thing for not being what it was never intended to be makes ANY intellectual sense
science, is just a fancy way of saying “how things work.” The methodology has been refined throughout the ages, but nonetheless, what the ancients thought of in the ANE and what they wrote about was them answering the question of “how things work.” So yes, it WAS intended to be exactly what is writing ALONG with the theology embedded into it.
The Bible was not intended to give us science. No one even knew the scientific method. The writers write from experience and the five senses. They aren’t “doing science” in any way.
@Katie
God gave Sampson his strength, Sampson’s hair did not give him strength. It is quite simple. If God said to your parents, I will give Katie super intelligence, but she must not shave her legs,because if she does then she will loose her super intelligence. Would that in any way imply your super intelligence was a product of your leg hair?
I have imagined Samson differently than most. The average person (and movie portrayals) show him as a Schwarzengger-style stud. But then people would not ask why he is strong, they would as where was his gym, so they could be like him.
I believe he looked like Pee Wee Herman. There had to be a big time disconnect for the people to be so shocked over his strength!
@ drmsh,
In regards to scholars engaging layman issues… Would you and Walton consider teaming up to produce a super book polemic that would lay Ken Ham to rest?
I think the vitality of this thread illustrates the need.
The flat earther’s we can’t do much about… but there are too many well meaning Christians out there who have fallen prey to Biblical literalism. As science continues to advance exponentially, this problem will continue to damage the Church exponentially.
Just a thought?
Thank your Dr. Heiser for the great post!
But be prepared for the accusations of not being a Christian and being an Illumanati plant because you don’t support a flat earth!
I’ve seen those accusations thrown out on social media quite a bit.
I doubt John would be interested. I’m thinking he’d think of his Lost World of Genesis 1 as already in that category.
I get this. The age-old fight between a “high view” of Scripture and a view that accepts the Bible in its original context. My brain did somersaults trying to process the inerrancy question in light of discovering what the Bible writers had going on in their head. I was deeply disturbed, to say the least. God was the author of the Bible… wasn’t He? If the Bible says the earth is flat, it must be flat. If the moon is called a “lesser light”, than it really must produce it’s own illumination. The flat earth is an extreme example, but we’ve all bounced around these arguments. My take is this: God communicated His will to men in a written language. It is the inspired word of God, but God is much, much more than human minds can comprehend. Eye hath not seen (you can’t read it in the Bible), ear hath not heard (you didn’t learn all there is to know from your pastor or Dr. Heiser or anyone else), nor has it entered the heart of man the things He’s prepared for those who love Him. Paul heard unspeakable words not lawful to be uttered (obviously NOT quotes from his Bible). My point is this – we need to accept that the Bible is the result of a perfect God extended His hand to imperfect man, in a way that man can process. There’s much more going on here than puny science, folks
It’s not correct to say a view that takes the Bible in its own context is somehow not a high view of Scripture. Think about the implication: “taking the Bible on its own terms is a low view of the Bible.” I know you aren’t espousing that, but your wording can be read that way.
Yep. Should have explained it better. I do have a high view of Scripture. But that term has been high-jacked by well-meaning and not-so-well-meaning people to mean that the Bible has no human fingerprints at all and therefore no context. That’s why I put the term in quotations. I’ve been beat over the head so many times with this fallacy I’m afraid I’m a bit sensitive to it. Thanks. 🙂
Oh, and thanks Mike for wading into this minefield. I appreciate all you do. God bless you
Flat earth is one of the bigger psy-ops that our government has unleashed on us. The point of the flat earth psy-op is easy to discern after listening to them for a short while. If Christianity, Belief in the Way of Christ Jesus, is associated with the ridiculousness of the flat earth psy-op, then Christianity is discredited, and eventually people that might start to look to Christ Jesus and GOD for answers, will turn away from GOD and from Scripture, in order not to be associated with the flat earth ridiculousness.
Scripture is sometimes literal and sometimes uses symbolism, metaphors, imagery, parables, etc., and it is our responsibility to understand when Scripture is literal or not.
It is funny to see how flat-earthers live in a global world, where all science, mathamatics, physics, technology, communications, etc. are based on the earth being a sphere, yet will argue the earth is flat. Maybe they live on a different planet? 🙂
Mike,
I’m glad somebody respectable in the fringe community has finally stood up and said that this flat earth talk is just plain non-sense. The topic has recently been discussed on a few Christian podcasts that I subscribe to and I can’t believe that people actually take this stuff seriously. And like you, I couldn’t help but think of the damage done to the testimony of Christ. The snarkiness of your original post was evident and appreciated. Keep pounding, brother!
Gandalf wasn’t always popular, but he didn’t care. Sometimes you just have to be direct.
Im not a flat earther, and I don’t necessarily want to read all the comments but, wouldn’t Jesus and all his apostles been flat earthers? They didn’t think it was based on misconceptions. They believed on top of the theology, that it WAS scientific. So how do we separate theologic truths from the misconceptions that those theology are wrapped in?
It’s easy – we do it every day ourselves. We can use a flawed strategy to present an argument for something true. The flaw in our communication doesn’t alter the truth of the end point.
Illustration: Lawyers prosecuting OJ Simpson for murder made errors (statements, use of evidence). Does any clear-thinking person really believe OJ is innocent? The reverse can also be true. You can have an unskilled lawyer arguing your case. if you’re truly innocent, the fact that your lawyer makes a mis-statement doesn’t suddenly make you guilty.
The point:
A truth proposition and the means to defending or articulating a truth proposition are DIFFERENT ITEMS. They should not be conflated.
This post and the comments make me very sad and unsettled.
After doubting the Bible’s accuracy (due to modern “science”) and considering to leave the faith, the flat earth view has renewed faith in and love for the Creator.
If the Bible is God’s book, and if it’s wrong, that reflects on God, not only on those who wrote His words.
Sadly, it appears both the writer and many of those commenting have never invested in learning the perspectives of the Christian flat earth community.
I cannot judge the writer’s intent. I only know that articles like this are discouraging to me – if we’ve come to the place scientifically where we can improve on God’s book, if we’re in fact smarter than God, then perhaps atheism has something to offer after all.
Please tell me I can still trust God’s book…
@Glenn
You can not claim the bible is wrong because it does not present infallible science, It was never meant to.
It would be like saying a cooking book is wrong because it does not explain how nuclear fission works.
Don’t be discouraged , just read the bible for what it was intended to be.
Again, big leap of logic here. You leap from “the bible doesn’t talk about this” (which I agree with, the bible doesn’t talk about dinosaurs or quantum physics) to “the bible says wrong things about this” which I disagree. With, I believe the bible is fully inerrant, all claims made in it are true, regardless of what man-made category of knowledge we cram the truth-claim into.
“Framing and presuppositions.”
Yes, you can trust God’s book!
And I have not seen any science that is incompatible with God’s Book. The parts that people get hung up over are truly small parts, that are far from the focus of the Book. These issues that might even remotely speak of a flat earth and heliocentrism are microscopic themes in the Bible.
The issues of sin and redemption and paramount, and occupy the majority of the text. That is where the message lies. We have to major in the majors, not in the minors.
I hesitated before commenting since the discussion already got so heated. Please don’t think of me as a troll, I have been following you for a long time (I was a subscriber to Behind the Façade). To get that out of the way,I don’t believe the earth is flat. You are however convincing me the Bible says it is. This is a problem for me. Liberal theologians hold that Jesus was often condescending to people’s belief, and as such we should not assume everything he says is the literal truth (like when he refers to Adam and Eve as real persons). But, as the late Francis Schaeffer use to say, this would make the Bible useless as a source of revelation. How can you tell when Christ was telling us “true” truth and not merely condescending to popular beliefs of the time? The same thing can be extended to the whole of scripture. If the Bible is not reliable in matters we can verify (the natural world, history) how can we trust it in things we can’t verify (God, angels, salvation). You seem to subscribe to a vision on inspiration that allows you to protect the Bible from any empirical verification, but you also make it irrelevant. What makes the Bible more special than the Coran, the sutras or the Hindu vedas if these writings can also invoke the same excuses. After all, these religious teachers were also living in a pre-scientific world and teaching spiritual truths rather than science. Why do YOU believe the Bible is the word of God? By reading your blog the last 15 years I have come to realise that most of the reasons I had for becoming a Christian were not as sound as I thought. I’m sure it was never your intention. Be that as it may, I see a lot of debunking on your site and very few affirming (in the objective, empirical realm that is). You may believe some people silly or stupid for believing what they do, but perhaps they can see the logical conclusion of some of your positions and are afraid to go there. Respectfully.
here a little experiment anyone can do to show a round earth, Get a flat piece of paper, turn off all the lights, have a flashlight and shine it on the paper standing 2-3 feet away, you will notice the light covers The whole thing, do the same thing with a Ball, fix the flashlight on one side, go to the other side of the ball, do you see the light of the flashlight on it?
Hang tough Mike, thank you for all your work. Your work is answering many questions and concerns I had concerning the Bible. It has strengthened my faith.
Thanks Mike,for caring enough about the flat-earthers
to tell them the truth.IMO your actions demonstrate true humility,
which is a necessary virtue when studying your work.The truth hurts.
Love your direct approach,kind of always thought you were too
nice,to some, with “foreheads like flint”.
foreheads like flint – LOL; great line
Uh oh, you poked the Fundamentalist-literalist bear, I do that sometimes in seminary courses by citing Walton, Johnson, Longman, or yourself and it isn’t pretty. They can be pretty aggressive and not very reasonable, and that’s people on their way to ministry who are studying the Bible academically, you’ve got the laity all riled up which will be exponentially worse! ;-D
I thought seminary was a place people came to learn and grow, not get riled up because they hear something that contradicts what their youth pastor told them during a trip to the Creation Museum in Kentucky.
Here’s the thing… biblical theology really matters. I was reading The Vineyard USA’s position paper on “Pastoring LGBT Persons,” released in reaction to a former Vineyard pastor’s decision regarding allowing LGBT persons to be pastors and leaders in his church. A significant portion of the position paper’s argument relied on using Temple Cosmology of Genesis 1 – 3 to counter gnosticism in the Church and to appropriately view sexuality. Vineyard is hardly ‘liberal’. Taking scripture in its own context really does matter to how we practice Christianity.
Long time lurker. Love your work.
Judging from some of the comments, I think God should reconsider putting us in charge.
Wow… so everyone who believes something against modern scientism, such as young earth creationism or flat earth, is stupid? I used to have a lot of respect for you, but your mocking tone and abandonment of contextual interpretation in this article is shocking. I wonder what Jesus will say to you at the judgment about your opinion of fellow believers who simply find many of the claims of scientism ridiculous? No, I’m not some delicate flower who thinks we should all only speak positively, but you crossed the line into slander.
You’re mixing two items that really aren’t the same.
This is interesting, in that it seems that MSH has not bothered to examine the FE argument in detail, and uses the tactic of ridicule, much like Christopher Hitchens and the long list of “liberal” leaning thinkers. Quite surprising actually. Can the curve be measured? Of course it can, as any sphere is circular at any point, and can be measured by the tangent of the radius (showing declination or curve). And that’s exactly what people are doing. Ridicule, Mr. Heiser, is scholarly examination.
Your comment doesn’t make sense. I think there’s a typo in it or something. But aside from that, I can’t actually tell what point you’re trying to make.
You know, for arguments let’s say the earth is flat. Now what? Probably nothing.
Meanwhile, electrical transmission companies will build their towers, Rockets will be launched, satellites will orbit, cell phones will continue with their communications using towers (using an oblate spherical/ellipsoid earth model) and all is well, everybody wins?
You know, when/if God communicates with me, I hope it is something I can understand and not beyond my limited intelligence.
Ok Mike, The Lord bless you.
A picture says a thousand words.
Job done.
So why are so many of the galaxies, assuming they are real photos of genuine galaxies, flat? Why would God make so many galaxies flat & yet He couldn’t possibly have made the earth flat? There are many scientific proofs that have been done showing that the earth doesn’t have curvature. Based on the accepted formula for measuring curvature [8″ x the # miles squared], no one at sea should be able to see a 250 foot tall lighthouse from 28 miles away, & yet they can, on any clear night. 8″ x 28 x 28= 6272 inches = 522 feet below the horizon. That’s 272 feet below the top of the lighthouse! All of Chicago can be seen from 57 miles across Lake Michigan at Grand Mere Park 23 feet above Lake Michigan. If we add a 6 foot tall man to that we have 29 feet, which subtracts 7 miles, assuming curvature. This is impossible if the earth is a globe. Do the math 8″ x miles squared. 8″ x 50 x 50 = 20,000 inches = 1667 feet below the horizon. The tallest building in Chicago is the Sears Tower [1729′ w/ antenna]. The antenna should barely be visible. Yet, the whole city is visible. And this is no mirage or else it would be upside down & floating on the horizon. There is example after example of this type of phenomenon on the Internet, showing no curvature. How does modern Science, which claims that the earth is spherical, explain this easily repeatable ‘observation’ which is the very definition of Science [conclusions based on repeatable experimentation]. This is a very simple example & one that has never been satisfactorily explained. As far as the earth being stationary, do some research on the Michelson/Morley Experiment [the year 1887], 2 scientists who were, both, very disappointed when their data came back proving a motionless earth. I know that almost no one will examine these things with an open mind, because it seems ridiculous. It did to me, as well, not very long ago. But I decided to give it an honest examination. If you are mocking the idea of a motionless flat earth, even though all your senses tell you it seems that way, it only shows that you have not done any honest unbiased examination. I feel sorry for your lack of curiosity. And this time I have spent has not hindered my proclamation of the Gospel. I agree that it isn’t part of the Gospel, but that doesn’t mean it has to be a hindrance, either, not any more than believing we are spinning @ 1000 mph around the equator & are traveling around the sun at 67,000 mph & through the Milky Way at 500,000 mph. Even though I am not 100% certain that the earth is flat & stationary, at least I can safely say that I will not mock the view, even if it seems to be nonsense to the many who are either, professional or amateur scientists.
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/3d4f858286bc586834ef9eeb8a81f8b87dfa4bf86f084c9a1f702001004f1a74.jpg
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/b9acf7b5ca5ec607cc094ea9bf871ea6611ccbcb2a5e4651bd44d5bd3bb17ec2.jpg https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/57cc35cdfc222badfa9b40d98f91961d8b67f21bf52994c3d3a1abe9ffcb0bf9.jpg https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c360abf0bb04f03eafe331afed455d1812092a6e51fa393451176580b76dad58.jpg https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/45a96f97e906a27397e834e4138c0235174d4958a08ea83f53622d4868c4aa36.jpg
galaxies aren’t flat, as there is no “up and down” in space — it has no north and south.
And you know this how?
Theory? All the modern globe idea is based on theory. I prefer physical science. Observable, Testable and repeatable.
Right — all those adjectives have established the world is a round globe. You have to think every picture of it ( have we reached a million of those yet?) is a fake. Totally absurd. So let’s “observe” and “test” the idea that they are faked.
so you think NASA is absurd? they will tell you all the pictues are photo shopped. i just wonder why i can click on a live feed to see the people on the other side of the globe sitting upside down drinking a beer. i should be able to watch this 24/7 with the technology they say we have. you know. the technology that they used to send that camara into space in the sixties that they operated from here with a remote control. oooookkkk
If you stand on the shore of Lake Winnebago in Oshkosh, WI and look east you will see the curvature of the earth. It is approximately 10 miles across to the other shore.
this photo disproves gravity
Anyone that makes a claim without proof, is an idiot.
Are flat earthers idiots?
Yes.
there is alot of test that can be performed to prove that the earth isnt what we have been told. Ie the so called curvature and disappearing ships along the horizon. funny thing is that all artists know this is called the vanishing point aka perspective. at what distance that our eyes can only see to. also there is something extremely secret and suspicious about “Antarctica” No civilians are permitted to go explore or fly over it. If you live your lives just believing what you are told, wouldnt it be dangerous if the fallen one started telling you what to believe ? God gave us all a mind and we choose to let NASA tell us about Gods creation as if NASA is the final answer. We believe Russia is bad and that China wants to take over America …. but who are we listening to? Has anyone of us truly went to China or Russia and witnessed the culture or the tension. How many of you guys has left earth and made it to the edge of space ? have anyone of you experienced an airplane dip its nose down during a flight …. to follow the curvature of the “globe”?
Believing in God is “just believing what you were told”. And the word is “science” not scientism. That’s sounds like a word people who believe in a god who promotes rape and castration of your enemies. Oh wait…
Yes, I seriously think modern belief in a flat earth is hopelessly stupid and willfully embracing absurd conspiratorial thinking (like all the photos of earth are fakes).
Mindful of Mat 18:6 — Christians, let’s NOT call fellow Christians stupid! And no, this is not about supporting the pancake geometry of FE! But consider this for a moment; the Bible’s cosmology may well be physically structured as denoted after all. So the ones with “faith”, justified.
For example:- By Genesis 1:5, a SPHERICAL planet earth seems descriptively established. Reading Gen 1:5… “And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. ”
Visualizing a spherical planet or a globe… bathed in light on one side, and darkness on the other, the transitions of “light to dark” and “dark to light” are simultaneous “evening AND morning”. Again, if the geometry, is visualized as a globe. It’s beautifully economical!
This is how simple things can turn on a dime once knowledge is available.
So let’s all step back a little and not insult each other. To the (1) Ancient Near East Cosmologists; what ancients conceptualized, may well still be relevant and descriptively accurate all along? There is some evidence of that in the book of Job and Dr Hugh Ross’ work has lots to say about that. (2) …and to the textual literalists, by your faith you may be justified in Christ, but you have to grow as Christians and consider that when the physical evidence is contrary to your own conceptual interpretation, then the conceptualization lens is out of focus, opaque or just wrong. Meaning the text is spot on, but your own conceptualization of it off.
Dr. MH, I love your inspired work! But since you brought the “hair” thing up! 🙂
Samson’s hair correlated to Samson’s powerful strength! But, perhaps a real biological connection existed between hair and strength? Modern medicine would find that absurd, and the Bible does say the Lord left him when his hair was cut, meaning the strength came for the Lord. But what if the Lord created Samson with some yet unknown medical connection between hair and strength? (In context of apostle Paul’s time and what is now thought to be Aristotle’s and Hippocrates weird beliefs on woman’s hair and conception!?)
We have to be careful. Something is going on here! we seeing way too many professing Christians with belief in this flat earth thing. Again, let’s stop, take a step back and have another look at this… for instance:- starting with the ancient cosmological model, allow it 4 dimensions instead. X:Y:Z and the arrow of time… you may find that our modern “flat paper” visualization of ancient cosmology is what was off.
I could call them fools – the biblical term.
Matt 18:6 has nothing to do with calling people foolish for believing foolishness.
The earth is not flat with a dome over it. Satellites we rely on every day are *programmed* to operate on non-flat earth paths around the earth. This is the sort of utter nonsense that gives people a reason to reject Christ, and I won’t give it any feel of validity by how I respond to it for that reason. Others who do will be accountable for their choices.
You make a sobering point; “This is the sort of utter nonsense that gives people a reason to reject Christ.”
The point of cautioning with Mat 18:6 – Preventing the little ones in faith, from stumbling into sin. How? Showing them the “bird”, calling them fools or stupid, or engaging in other discouraging taunts against their faith in Christ, framework flaws and all, but still faithful nonetheless.
MHeiser, thank you for sharing your lectures. This spreads the word of God’s salvation to all the corners of the earth.
(Oops, I did type “corners”, and without a doubt the earth is a globe, but in the hope that all brethren in Christ consider the things discussed here.)
These folks aren’t “little ones” — they are willfully self -deceived and (key point for me) are transparently unwilling to be taught the contrary. I don’t have the time to go over why the idea is wrong and harmful again and again and again. I have to be a steward of my time. I could call these people a lot worse, plucking the language right out of the biblical text, and I think you know that. But I don’t. It’s not about one-upsmanship for me. I just need to be clear and firm and then leave it alone. And that’s what I’m doing.
MHeiser – I agree, there is a time where entrenched willful ignorance, cannot be babied anymore. Don’t blame you, for being beyond that threshold! But in the spirit of learning Christ’s forgiveness – Mat 18 again verse 22 onward, 77 times forgiveness… but eventually tactical stupidy be damned.
They don’t need my forgiveness. They haven’t sinned against me (or God). Believing something dumb doesn’t have to be a sin.
That’s harsh. It is possible that these people are mentally ill and more susceptible to such garbage, and not willfully being deceived.
Do you think people focus on these types of issues to avoid the more important concerns of God, like being kind, humble, good(not necessarily nice) to others or allowing the Holy Spirit to convict them of their own faults? Does it matter for most of us if the earth is flat or round? I hold your view. It isn’t like we are going to get off this planet any other way then through death or rapture is it? But will they focus on making themselves more intelligent or humble or mature in God? No.
where in the Bible is “rapture” mentioned? It is my understanding that “rapture” was a 19th century invention by men.
Tom, your comment made perfect sense to me but not MSH and he has lost my respect. I think perhaps your last statement was going to be “Ridicule, Mr. Heiser, is not scholarly examination.” Further, I think your comments about the curve were to suggest that if there was a curved earth we would be able to measure and observe such curve, but the fact is, in real life, we cannot. What MSH intends by his response is to continue his specious argument of ridicule, wanting you to know, in his words, that you are dumb, stupid, not sane, disappointing, dishonoring to God, unprincipled, mindless, simplistic and deliberately dishonest. I unashamedly reject the position of MSH regarding the sphere and heliocentrism he so desperately loves. The argument that men in ancient times were ignorant beasts and God in His word had to “teach down to them” is a ridiculous argument. I would argue that after Jesus, the smartest man alive was Adam. After that it was downhill. MSH is an example of the kind of doctor of philosophy that only the 20th century can produce. A result of loss of thought process and cognition proceeding through the generations. Evolution in reverse. As one considering the flat earth, I am not ashamed except in the response MSH gave to you. I wonder if Jesus had anything to say about this…hmmm “…but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.” I am not calling MSH a fool. I am saying he is deceived and with his degrees, entrenched in the education system that has lied to him. God’s forgiveness is great, but pride seems to be the worst sin that God has to deal with. Pride is greatly exhibited in the article of MSH. I left a couple of punctuation problems in my response so that MSH would not understand what I am saying here. Tom, I appreciate your response to him, “Ok Mike, The Lord bless you.” You are so kind. MSH is not and I do not perceive the Spirit of love in his life by his article and his response to you. Blessings Tom Sinclair
I’ve since lost the context for this. At any rate, I’m not here to earn respect from flat-earthers. There is simply no reason to believe it, and being anti-science diverts people away from the gospel. That’s the last thing in life we should want to do.
My blood starts boiling when I see these things – it is one reason why I moved away from Christianity. I genuinely fear we are in for very dark times, with this kind of mentality in our government now. It’s hard to say what is merely manipulation of the gullible and religious by people like Trump or what is genuine belief (like Ted Cruz, whom I suspect is a true believer and would create a theocracy if given a chance).
I guess I still want to believe in God, but I cannot believe that any God would give us brains and not expect us to use them. I also do not believe that any God would want us to hate or ridicule the poor or to destroy our planet by ignoring science.
“if there was a curved earth we would be able to measure and observe such curve, but the fact is, in real life, we cannot.”
Totally untrue. And this demonization of “liberals” and education, science and anything progressive (meaning “progress”) is exactly why my opinion of Christians (and to some extent Christianity) has hit the basement. I fear that with the increasing power of people like Dennis Watson – even now in government – we are about to enter another dark ages.
Okay, now I realize why there are so many comments from you — you’re engaging a flat earther here somewhere (I’m taking the comments in oldest-newest order).
Test The Globe Theory: http://www.testingtheglobe.com/Bible.htm
A site no doubt put together by real scientists. LOL.
Here are phrases and quotes from “real scientists” regarding the newly discovered earthly barrier dubbed the “plasampheric hiss”:
“glass wall in space”
“invisible shield”
“It’s a very unusual, extraordinary, and pronounced phenomenon”
“impenetrable barrier”
“exceedingly sharp” barrier
“It’s like looking at the phenomenon with new eyes, with a new set of instrumentation, which give us the detail to say, ‘Yes, there is this hard, fast boundary,’” – John Foster, associate director of MIT’s Haystack Observatory.
source
http://www.ibtimes.com/invisible-plasma-shield-which-protects-earth-radiation-discovered-7200-miles-above-1730214
A plasma shield isn’t a solid dome. And 7200 miles about the earth isn’t a dome covering the earth either. And note the headline says “planet” — but I’m emailing Dr. Foster to see what he thinks of your conclusions using his research. Hopefully he’ll reply. Most academic wouldn’t, but let’s hope he’s an exception.
I asserted no conclusions, I just posted the language used to describe this phenomenon which he, and others, find to be unusual, extraordinary and new. In other words, they cannot explain it using the conventional science and wisdom, yet. Hence why they use the terms “almost” and “like” since this is how most people speak when they cannot determine exactly what something is.
I included the source intentionally so people can read the context of the full article. I am in no way trying to deceive or push an agenda; I am only citing what some would call “credible scientific sources” regarding an aspect of this topic. It is easy to ridicule “non-scientists” when they offer questions about the “truths” we have been taught so I thought a scientists’ perspective relating to 1 part of the equation would be at least considered legitimate to follow up on. Obviously, you did.
I am a truth-seeker first and foremost as all who believe in the God of the Bible should be. There are many aspects of this world and life which are hidden and obfuscated by those who claim to have power and authority. You have spoken and wrote about many these things on different occasions. We know why this is perpetrated; the enemies of God are subtil like their Master. I find it very difficult to trust what governments, and those controlled and sanctioned therefrom, put out as truth. Of course, we need to use logic, reason and critical thinking skills in order to come to rational and truthful conclusions. That is what I am after regarding this subject matter.
Thank you for continuing to give it your time. Your, and others’, extensive skill and knowledge in ancient language and cultures are essential in this day and age for the rest of us who do not possess such. Let us test everything against the Word to find, and keep, only what is true.
I believe “origins” and “creation” are always the first target of the enemy since all other lies and blasphemies branch out from that initial attack.
Did Dr Foster ever respond to you? In fact, there are more than a few academics who will respond.
no idea
And let me add that this sentence is being misued:
“It’s almost like theses electrons are running into a glass wall in space”
*almost*
*like*
this is the language of analogy, not an assertion of literalism.
But like I said, hopefully he’ll reply.
Direct from MIT news site…
https://news.mit.edu/2014/plasma-shield-against-harmful-radiation-1126
“This natural, impenetrable barrier appears to be extremely rigid, keeping high-energy electrons from coming no closer than about 2.8 Earth radii — or 11,000 kilometers from the Earth’s surface”
It’s not a physical barrier, nor is it visible per the biblical suggestion. You’ve got nothing here that aligns with a biblical description or that’s solid.
If God used generic and/or figurative language to loosely describe the creation and design of the earth in order “to meet them where they were” as you opine, why do you now demand that the Bible should precisely describe what these scientists have discovered in order to believe that the Bible may be describing the same phenomenon?
The article Reymar linked to is interesting. As one with education and training in physics and electromagnetism, I can say that the language was most definitely an analogy. MIT and CU Boulder are both excellent schools in physics. These scientists did not possibly mean a literal wall, and “sharp” is a figure of speech here.
Wwwwwwhhhhhyyyyyyyyyeeeeeeeeeeeee?????
not sure who this is a reply to, since my new comments system stinks. I can’t tell who is replying to who. I’ll be working on changing this.
It was in response to Nathan, is how he’s listed with the **CHALLENGE ISSUED** at the top of his comment. No big deal either way…
The cosmology of the biblical writers has a flat earth. I’m dealing with a number of passages in this video lecture:
http://vimeo.com/16031751
The Peleg verse has nothing to do with the question. Of course the earth was divided – ??
The earth lasting a long time also has nothing to do with the cosmology – ?
This also has nothing to do with science – ?
But if your point is that the earth really isn’t flat, I agree.
God chose people whose worldview wasn’t modern. That ought to be obvious. He knew what he was getting. They were fine to express what God wanted expressed about his status as creator, how we all got here, who is responsible to whom, etc.
If this is to me, than you’ve misread the point. God didn’t get anything wrong. He used people whose worldview wasn’t modern. That ought to be quite obvious. God didn’t care about their worldview, as what he wanted them to convey to posterity (theirs and ours) transcends science — and their worldview was perfectly adaptable to getting that sort of information correct.
‘He used people whose worldview wasn’t modern. That ought to be quite obvious.’
2 timothy 3:16 disagrees with you. is the bible written by God through men or not?
It’s written by men prompted by God to write. God used people. People aren’t omniscient.
Regarding 2 Tim 3:16 please remove the word “is” from this scripture as it was added by the translators.
thousands of verses in the Hebrew Bible and Greek NT are *verbless clauses* (Hebrew and Greek does that a lot, likely more than English). So to make any sense of the text, English has to add a predicate. The best (worst?) example is Deut 6:4, the Shema — the entire verse has no verb. What would you like translators to do with that?
Sure but I mentally remove them to see if its needed and in the case of 2 Tim 3:16 the verse becomes modified without the verb “is”. So in this verse it appears the verb is added to discourage questioning the translated/transliterated text. This then indicates that not every word in the script is necessarily the word of the MOST HIGH and can thus can be questioned.
While I believe in the Only Begotten Son of the MOST HIGH the question for me is can you prove the name translated Jesus is the true name of the Savior?
In Greek it is. But I suppose we could say the NT is full of errors. But I’m not one to say that.
Yes however the Savior is Hebrew Israelite but the name Jesus is greek, latinized english so how is that matching up with the name above all names (Acts 4:12)? The name Jesus is the #! doctrine of Christianity. Now come to find out the Christians cannot even prove the name Jesus? 2Tim 2:15, 1Th 5:21…smh Could this be the possible deception and delusion the great LIE? Rev 12:9, 2Th 2:9-12 Because it would only make sense to me that a perfect Hebrew Savior have a perfect Hebrew name. But the name Jesus is not Hebrew at all. How devastating and we are in the last days!
Gentiles didn’t need to learn Hebrew to believe in Jesus, nor was the message of the cross rendered unclear by the absence of a “perfect” (whatever that means – Jesus’ Hebrew name was common) Hebrew name. It doesn’t matter how the name was spelled or pronounced in any language.
See:
https://drmsh.com/the-name-of-jesus-does-it-matter/
https://drmsh.com/what-was-the-hebrew-name-of-jesus/
The Savior was perfect then and is perfect now. And according to the ancient holy writings of the NT there is only One name given under heaven by which man Must be saved Acts 4:12, 10:43 Thus a perfect holy Savior must Have a perfect holy name. Our Savior was typified as the future lamb to come by the perfect ram, sheep or goat w/o spot or blemish that was sacrificed in the OT Exodus 12:5 , Lev 1:1-4, 1Cor 5:7 So yes He is perfect and His name Must be perfect as well. Even today we are called to be perfect in our spiritual walk before YAHOWAH Matt 5:48 . Now with man this is impossible but with help from the FATHER above all things are possible. Matt 19:26
So again this is why the name of Jesus is False Doctrine because it is not a perfect Hebrew Israelite name that would apply to a perfect Hebrew Israelite Savior. Thus the name Jesus is false doctrine. It is perfect logic and thus a no-brainer. It simply cannot be denied that the name Jesus is absolutely false doctrine according to the holy scriptures because of the imperfection of the name. Even the name must be perfect for there can be no imperfection whatsoever!!! It must be a lamb without spot or blemish. Heb 10:5-17
The issue isn’t the perfection of the savior. The issue is the state of the creation, which wasn’t perfect. If it was perfect, it wouldn’t need to be made like Eden as God commanded Adam and Eve to do (i.e., the created earth needed to be “subdued” — i.e., brought under control). If it was perfect it wouldn’t need anything. It would not need to be maintained or brought into another state. By definition this shows us it wasn’t perfect (and recall that the earth wasn’t Eden; Eden was a small piece of the earth — it has specific geography in Gen 2). In addition the word “good” (tov) in Gen 1:31 isn’t the word that would be used for perfection. That would be Hebrew tam (“complete”).
The above is what the biblical text says. I didn’t write it, but I do read it. What it says isn’t heretical.
A literalist would say that Eve was made from Adam’s rib, correct? And Eve was the one who defied God, and God punished her. No wonder there is a thread of misogyny permeating Christianity. If the Bible is not to be taken literally but instead metaphorically, then Eden could be merely a spiritual “place”, could it not?
Also why was creation imperfect, if created by God who is perfect?
That is quite an assumption, but it is a reasonable one if you believe in God and are not nuts.
God didn’t dictate the words to the writers. Otherwise things like explicit parallels to non-biblical material would be a problem (is God quoting pagans?). Otherwise editing would be a problem (read Ezek 1:1-5 — why can’t God decide between the first person and third person?) Otherwise .. . a dozen other things. Theopneustos (2 Tim 3:16) means that God is the ultimate point of origin for Scripture, not that he dictated words. Don’t blame me for his decision to use people (who lived in a pre-scientific world). That was his choice. And I’m glad for it, since he makes good choices.
I admire your faith. It must be difficult to have faith and be an intelligent, educated (and obviously sane) human being. I read your argument about why you are a Christian, and I suppose that is why I am somewhat an agnostic. Increasingly, however, the far out zealots are leaving a bad taste in my mouth for anything religious.
You have intellectualized yourself out of revelation.
God didn’t dictate the words to the writers. Otherwise things like explicit parallels to non-biblical material would be a problem (is God quoting pagans?). Otherwise editing would be a problem (read Ezek 1:1-5 — why can’t God decide between the first person and third person?) Otherwise .. . a dozen other things. Theopneustos (2 Tim 3:16) means that God is the ultimate point of origin for Scripture, not that he dictated words. Don’t blame me for his decision to use people (who lived in a pre-scientific world). That was his choice. And I’m glad for it, since he makes good choices.
http://vimeo.com/16031751
Dollar sign? What a doofus.
Well, this one is so comical I’ll approve it. Here’s my little secret: I have earned zero from my book Unseen Realm, even though it’s a bestseller. And I knew that would be the case going in.
With all your brilliant powers of deduction, you probably know that I’m the guy who posted his income tax returns online to show people like you to be fools. They are STILL online. Three years’ worth. I did that back in the early 2000s when ancient aliens idiots (maybe some of your friends?) said I was getting rich off Sitchin’s name.
Will you do the same? I’m not holding my breath.
Dollar sign? What a doofus.
Well, this one is so comical I’ll approve it. Here’s my little secret: I have earned zero from my book Unseen Realm, even though it’s a bestseller. And I knew that would be the case going in.
With all your brilliant powers of deduction, you probably know that I’m the guy who posted his income tax returns online to show people like you to be fools. They are STILL online. Three years’ worth. I did that back in the early 2000s when ancient aliens idiots (maybe some of your friends?) said I was getting rich off Sitchin’s name.
Will you do the same? I’m not holding my breath.
http://vimeo.com/16031751
me too
Try a belief that there are no planets, because the Bible doesn’t mention them. I just learned tonight (7 months after this post) that my sister-in-law actually believes that. The rest of the family thinks she is mentally ill.
I’m sure you’ve set a record for the number of comments on the blog! 🙂 Makes me sad I didn’t see them earlier.
me three. I learned about it recently because my sister-in-law believes that. She is not stupid, and she is reasonably well educated (a masters in education). However, I suspect she is mentally ill. I can’t think of any other explanation. I just thank heavens she is not teaching children.
The explenation is she is thinking for herself. An awakening worlwide is happening . its not mental illness. People are waking up from the slumber that has blanketed the population for decades thanks to the globalist elite bankers and tyrannical govenment. Just like 9/11 and what people thought of others like myself that researched and discovered the real truth. We were conspiracy nuts. But its popular now and the majory know it was an inside job. We live in the end times and satan rules the earth right now. Look at this place and what its become its sickening. Wrong os right right is wrong, people dont even know what gender they are , things that go agai st Gods word is accepted and people are criticized if they point it out. All i can say is people better start getting there spiritual mind and soul ready and repent because christ will be returning soon real soon. The signs are everywhere.im not trying to argue about flat or round . i do believe that we are NOT told the truth about the majority we get taught or told. I also do believe somthing wicked this way comes and is trying to be hidden with chemtrails. And they have dug a buttliad of underground bunkers for a reason.
me too
I had absolutely no idea there were so many professing believers who actually think the world is flat. What happened to making the gospel the center of our faith? Let’s get back to basics and live there for awhile and give our fringe conspiracy desires a break……forever. Come on people.
I once thought the “basics” were that there was a God that cared about all people, Christ died for our sins, we were to love one another and not be judgmental of others different than ourselves.
I can’t make sense of this one, but it’s approved.
I can’t make sense of this one, but it’s approved.
pretty incoherent reply, but approved.
pretty incoherent reply, but approved.
Your description of Skiba illustrates how what he does is sophistry.
Loved this line: “I wonder what other Islamic foundations the flat earthers adhere to.”
I don’t plan to spend any more of my valuable time on flat earth nonsense. I view it as another illustration of the flight from reason.
I just accidentally stumbled upon this website. It creeps me out. I always thought that the term “flat-earther” was sort of a joking metaphor for people who don’t accept much modern science. I didn’t realize there was a whole “community” of people out there who literally believe the world is flat.
But I guess it explains a lot about how messed-up and fact-free our discussions of public policy have become these days in the United States. If someone is credulous enough to fall for something as patently ludicrous as a flat earth worldview, one can fall for literally anything. They are people who, for the good of society, should be kept far away from schools and voting booths.
I hear you. It’s an illustration of the modern flight from reason.
They should also be kept away from government. Unfortunately, they are not. I am genuinely fearful for our country. I am worried about my children and grandchildren. How could we have reached this point? I have to say that I haven’t given Christianity much thought except in negative terms in recent years. This website has been engrossing and I just found it today, after talking with my husband who told me of his sister’s recent revelations about her bizarre beliefs.
Thanks David. You’re right, we waste effort arguing about pointless things all to often. Me included so thanks for the heads up.
“To say that the scriptures were not intended to teach science truthfully, is in substance to declare that God Himself has stated, and commissioned His prophets to teach things which are utterly false!”
Whatever source that comes from is incoherent.
So, the seat of our emotions isn’t the brain, but our kidneys?
And full human persons can reside in men (Heb 7:4-10)? Pardon, but we really do know how babies are made. YOU are the result of the union of two parents / sets of chromosomes, and the full package cannot reside in a male.
And God knew that, too. He didn’t pick the writers to produce science. He knew what he was getting and he was fine with that. And what they produced was fine with God. The means for articulating truth doesn’t mar the truth of a truth proposition. Biblical truth propositions are inerrant (my view). In other words, what the Bible proposes as a truth, no matter the “primitive” nature of the agent or even the argument, is in fact true.
I know this is an old thread, but I would just like to comment on something Kelley wrote, her first two sentence, “So words breathed into man by our creator, is not intelligent enough? Looking to and relying on man is more intelligent than receiving the words directly from the the God of the bible?”
I assume that when you wrote about “words breathed into man by our creator” you are referring to “All Scripture is God-breathed” (NIV) from 2 Timothy 3:16, right? I think you need to read that whole verse and the following at least, to get what Paul is saying here to Timothy –
“All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.” (ESV)
So, what’s the purpose of God-breathed Scripture? – That me way be trained in righteousness, be complete, have everything we need for every good work. It doesn’t say that the purpose of Scripture is to teach us everything about the physical world around us. After all, we walk by faith and not by sight, and we do not wrestle against flesh and blood…
I can read the creation story/stories over and over again and be in awe by what God has done. I like that it’s in simple language that does not go into great detail. And when I step outside at night, if I’m somewhere in the countryside with no light pollution, on a clear night, the sky looks like a dome that spans across and is sprinkled with thousands of stars affixed to it. I can appreciate God’s amazing creation without thinking that I am literally under a dome with thousands of lights attached.
As Dr Heiser points out, if you believe that the LORD inspired Scripture word for word, you run into all sorts of problems, including: why didn’t the LORD look after his words better rather than allowing the original manuscripts to be lost and for copyists to make mistakes?
Once again we see Cristian denominations/sects bickering over Bible interpretations. It makes one wonder..
“Christian”
This isn’t really about “Bible interpretation” at its heart. It’s about denying reality and conspiracy theory. To believe the earth is truly flat means believing that all the pictures of the globe from space are hoaxes. That isn’t about Bible interpretation.
You’re right but numerous comments in this thread show otherwise..
I’m sure Jesus was asked about the “edges of the flat earth” in the 33 years he lived in this world and presume he would’ve corrected anyone with such nonsense (maybe).
I feel for the flat earth movement but won’t waste my precious time arguing with them because “flat earthers” bring forward a strong case for their argument.
We as a people have been deceived, hoodwinked and lied to throughout history. The oligarchy, oil companies, bankers, big pharma, media and NASA cannot be trusted. They dish out disinformation 24/7 and when they do tell the truth, how can one discern?
I believe the flat earth movement was set up, by an evil force, to be proven wrong so that true believers might turn their backs on our Creator.
Whether we live on a globe or a flat earth doesn’t matter, it’s a clear distraction to our true purpose, to love God!
I feel for them, too. But I feel more for the people who will reject Christ because of their commitment to nonsense.
I feel for you. calling us stupid, making faulty assumptions, denying that conspiracies exist, etc
we do not believe the earth is flat because of the description in the bible as much as we have found the earth to be flat through observation and discernment. the fact that the bible supports flat-earth has proven to confirm what we were experiencing in our natural world.
What the world is is because that is the way God made it. The world is not flat. Your experience of the earth as one small earth-dweller is not sufficient for knowing that the world is a globe held in orbit around the sun. Your experience (and the experience of any of us) is not sufficient for all sorts of natural things, like the progression of disease, or a genetic defect, etc. There really are such things that are not discernible via individual experience. So the premise upon which you base your thought trajectory isn’t sound.
For those who believe the earth is flat, planets don’t exist, etc. because they are not mentioned in the Bible, I would ask what they think of bacteria? Would they go without antibiotics if they get an infection? After all, the Bible does not address bacteria. (Yes, I am aware that some people actually do go without antibiotics – there have periodically been news reports about parents arrested for child abuse/neglect and even negligent homicide because their child died as a result.)
Toilet paper and microwave ovens also aren’t mentioned in the Bible. So I guess we have to deny their existence, too (else we deny the Bible).
Again, you can’t reason with those committed to such ideas. Just be kind and tell them the truth.
We can’t observe bacteria. Does that mean they do not exist? If science is wrong or evil, then Christians should never take antibiotics, since that would treat a non-existent threat. I know some Christians have done just that, and withheld antibiotics from their children (some of whom died). We in the legal profession call that negligent homicide. But I suppose scientists, doctors and lawyers are tools of the devil, too.
Whoa… so we can’t claim the world is flat due to our everyday experiences and senses because “things are not discernible via individual experience” (which I’ll take as an admission that as per our senses, a logical conclusion is that the Earth is flat) but you can make the claim with utmost confidence that “the world is not flat” based on what exactly? Have you ever seen a satellite? Curvature? Space? Have you proofed the mathematical equations? Did you know as per relativity it is practically impossible to prove the heliocentric model even from space? The Earth orbiting the sun is a philosophical conclusion based on the “impossibility” of the Earth being the center of the universe.
“Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into ALL truth…”
Don’t know how your followers are appalled by a flat earther but not when you make claims like God “couldn’t care less” that his spirit filled authors were perpetrating a lie. All truth is all truth. Flat earth or not, Your statements are blasphemy.
The word of God is not a buffet where you pick and choose what you eat. You go ahead and continue having faith in your “science falsely so called”, I’ll be sure to continue to “take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man.”
Ah yes, fellow Christians are so fucking dumb. Stupid assholes, how dare they use my model and the Bible to try to interpret reality. Dumb, stupid, ignorant Christians. There just so stupid, stupid, stupid.
Heiser, your work is truly inspirational, very noteworthy, and should be read and preached in churches across the world. Don’t let it all go to shit because of your pride and arrogance. It’s something I know you struggle with, it’s something I still do. We can smell our own!
1 Corinthians 8:1 my man, I remind myself of it everyday.
Sanctified incompetence is still incompetence. If an idea put forth in the name of Christ leads people away from Christ, that ought to matter.
Fundamentalism turned me off from Christianity. I took a circuitous route into Judaism and now I am simply agnostic.
I know this is a sweeping generalization (but it’s one I’d say would be demonstrable were enough research done), but the average congregation in Judaism or Christianity isn’t exposed to their sacred texts and asked to think about them in their original context. Simple ideas like “God knew who he prompted to write XYZ in the Bible, and didn’t change who they were, so the fact that they didn’t know modern science should tell us that’s not the point of what God wanted put to writing” is, for some reason, either not taught or isn’t self-evident. My point is that most congregations are about preserving a tradition and developing relationships with like-minded folks. Neither is evil, of course, but if they blunt or eliminate careful thinking about the propositions that underlie the faith, they are a disservice.
I am one of those people. I could no longer believe what I saw as illogical and irrational, and particularly I could not tolerate the hatred and judgmentalism I have seen from the vocal fundamentalist Christians. When I hear the word “Christian” anymore, this is what comes to mind, and it makes me sick. There are parts of the Bible that I find beautiful and inspiring, such as parts of Psalms and the sermon on the mount. Mostly, though, I consider it a product of an ancient culture trying to explain what they could not understand.
Thanks for being a living example of the harm this idea does. But I’d ask you to reconsider your reaction to the faith (lots of really smart people, with the highest academic credentials, who aren’t science deniers, are Christians). Maybe instead of reacting to irrationality you need to re-evaluate the whole thing unencumbered by the irrationality.
For the flat earthers try to make a flat earth map where all the international flights match the flight times we know it takes. Explain the sun phenomenon in Australia compared to Alaska. Explain why the seasons are opposite, like we are in winter in the states, but it is summer in Australia, etc. Or if you are really serious book a flight from the East coast (I have taken this flight) and fly to Burnie, Tasmania. You will find it is around 6+ hours from Philly to LAX, then abt 13 hrs from LAX to Melbourne, Australia, then another hour over to Tasmania.
physicist piccard who in 1931 went 10 miles up 1st man to reach the stratosphere wrote what he saw in popular science i believe august edition of ’31 before nasa and their lies. he wrote the earth seemed a flat disc with a upturned edge…….no curve ten miles up…..the bible is also clear the earth doesn’t move…please youtube “the man who saw the flat earth: Auguste Piccard. by geoshifter” why have you never heard of him? we have 0 real pictures from outerspace, we never been to the moon,the EPIC SATELLITE showing the darkside of the moon is fake if you believe that horrid cgi you must have bad eye sight, we were made for earth not space travel.Dr Piccard is a VERY credible scientist watch the whole vid a pastor even bought the original popular science mag to read the interview unedited…should peak some interest.
“NASA and their lies” — thanks for validating my post title.
Sorry, we’ve been to the moon and there are LOTS of satellites in space that aren’t controlled by NASA — other companies and governments. They really do post correct images of the round earth.
How can you possibly reason with someone who thinks anything other than their belief is deceived by the devil? I fear it is not possible. I just heard tonight from my husband (who is visiting his sister) that she too thinks NASA is “of the devil.” That’s the first I ever heard of such lunacy.
You can’t. All you can do is tell that person the truth and hope some life experience re-awakens their reason. A belief like the flat earth is a flight from reason, so by definition, reason itself won’t work, especially if people have been lied to that their irrational belief leaves them in an all-or-nothing quandary about God, Christ, the Bible, faith, etc.
My SIL would say that all those companies and governments are tools of the devil, and the images are faked. How can one possibly argue with that “argument”?
Excellent article and points well made, Dr. Heiser!
Thanks!
My colleague is a flat earther, and the evidence he produces isn’t always entirely dumb, and makes me scratch my head regularly. Anyway, I’m glad a team from GSW set out to do some shadow measuring in three locations, which debunks the whole flat earth theory: http://itc.gsw.edu/faculty/bcarter/physgeol/egypt/FlatEarth.pdf (still waiting for my colleagues response to this… in the mean time, maybe some flat earthers in this discussion can enlighten me…)
Once you hear the “sound arguments” made in defense of the idea debunked, you’ll know it’s wrong. I’d have used a word like sophistry, but that wouldn’t communicate the point as well.
I wish I could get my sister in law to read your website. But she probably would say you are deceived by the devil.
She wouldn’t be the first.
Dear Dr. Heiser,
I appreciate your scholarship and your clear concise approach in conveying what the Bible says about creation and the Scriptures that clearly support a geocentric universe. I was introduced to the flat earth theory a few months ago. Thought it to be absurd. Quite honestly, after listening to your seminar, I am now fully convinced of a geocentric universe. Simply, because of what Scripture conveys and what early Church Fathers say. I can’t help but believe, that the “scientific community” has become the god of this age and Christians are embracing it. Also, please don’t take offense, but your argument that you thought it was not important for the All Wise Creator to not reveal what was truth, concerning the correct understanding of creation was weak. You believe that God allowed them to stay in error because He thought it not very important. I believe God does not want His people to walk in darkness. We can look at the many details in Leviticus and see that God thought it was important to instruct them in those particular truths. Just because the pagans believed in a geocentric world doesn’t mean it is incorrect. Many pagan societies believed in a world wide flood. Should I not believe in a world wide flood, even though Scripture clearly indicates there was one? Also, are there no basic truths that the people took with them after God confused their languages at the Tower of Babel (Genesis 10)…especially, in light of the inspired creation account in Genesis 1. The Genesis 1 account certainty implies a geocentric creation.
I was looking to be convinced by your teaching, but came away with nothing substantial to hold on to. Also, one last thought and a very alarming to me…If I would take your position, I would logically think,” Well, if God didn’t correct His people on that and allowed them to continue in a “lie”…what else “might” be hidden….or what other so called truth is not truth at all.” I am sorry, it would not have been very hard for God to say ” ball earth, guys”….not flat, you dummies!
I will stand with Scripture. Let God be God and very man a liar.
Reformation Lady
Maryann Gulotta
Sorry to hear that, as the geocentric universe isn’t true. Where is the fallen cosmic tree (Naked Bible podcast episode 145 on Ezek 31)? I hope you won’t adopt the idea that full human persons can exist inside a male (Heb 7).
As I’ve noted many times, ancient cosmology is not to be taken as truth about the natural world — it can be easily falsified (Stuart Robbins has shown this in several of his Exposing PseudoAstronomy episodes). What biblical writers said about the natural world isn’t of the same propositional nature as what they say about the supernatural world. Since biblical propositions about the spiritual world are not subject to the tools of science (the natural world is something we regularly experience and can thus learn about first hand, developing our ability to do so), then propositions about God’s domain (the spirit world) and the intersection of that domain with our domain are items we must accept by faith – which is not a synonym for irrationality. Faith propositions can and must be tested for philosophical coherence. They cannot be tested scientifically, only logically.
In other words, when the biblical writers claim something about cosmology (the earth is round and flat, circumscribed by a solid dome that holds the waters in place, etc.), the tools of science can evaluate that description. Humans therefore learn, through the tools of science, more and more about the natural world God has made. Since those tools develop and change over time, our knowledge develops and changes over time. We progressively discover the TRUTH about what God has made in our natural world. But the tools of science cannot tell us about the non-material spiritual world. Claims made about that supernatural realm can thus only be evaluated by rules and tools of sound thinking (e.g., logic). The supernatural realm is not our realm. When the biblical writers tell us about that realm, we must take it as divine revelation (a very familiar Christian concept — tied to biblical authority) and probe the claims for intellectual coherence. As noted above, such claims have been well defended by top-tier philosophers of all eras. We actually don’t need to appeal to divine revelation because of the work of philosophers, but since we are talking about the Scriptures here, it’s appropriate to make revelation part of the discussion.
Thus cosmological claims and claims about the supernatural world are two different things. To compare them as though one invalidates the other is to engage in “apples and oranges” logic.
Hi Dr Heiser,
By the way, I’ve been enjoying your book, “The Unseen Realm”. I have found much concerning the Divine Counsel to be good ‘unexplored territory’. Also, read “The Facade” many years ago. Anyway, I’m not answering for my wife here. I’m sure she will do that on her own.
But I did want to post something to you, that I had posted further up in this blog, because I wasn’t sure if you would see it there. It was a response to an atheist who posted a picture of a little girl blowing bubbles, as if that proved the earth was spherical. I haven’t made any decisions of the nature of the earth & its place in the cosmos. But I have been giving the flat earthers the benefit of the doubt by actually giving it some fair examination. It seems you have not nor will do such a thing. That’s too bad, because it is a growing trend, as ridiculous as that seems to you & most others. I would think that instead of mockery, which seems quite prevalent on this blog [much of it is not from you, although some of it is] that the alarming nature of this “insanity” would be enough to give all involved a moment to pause & say, what is going on with this craziness. You don’t have time, I know… I didn’t have time either, even though I could sit down & watch endless hours of say, Lord of the Rings/Hobbit or rehash old Jurassic Park movies or Super Bowl, or the Olympics etc… or “Fill in the blank, yourself”. I study a lot, mostly, the Bible/Theology. I have a B.A. in Science [Biology]. I’m also, a Pastor, and I preach the Gospel throughout the week & on Sunday to my congregation. And I know that I’m no genius, by any means, but it seems that what everyone is calling ‘science’ isn’t really science, but speculation based on Mathematics & modern Physics, not repeatable experimentation. I hope your conviction on heliocentrism is based on honest study of the subject & your belief that the photos of earth are also, based on unequivocal trust that these are actual photographs. I surely have my doubts after examining the evidence from NASA’s official photos. I would encourage you to examine those few ‘official’ photos, of which there should be thousands. There could be many possible proofs that would satisfy ‘Flat Earther’s’, such as 24 hour midnight sun footage from the South Pole [I haven’t seen any] or video footage of the spherical earth from the many rockets that have, apparently, left earth’s orbit or video footage from the Space Station showing the unarguable curvature of the earth. I believe there should be many ‘Infallible Scientific Proofs’ that we are living on a spinning globe around a Sun that is a million times bigger than the earth & 93 million miles away. Scientific verifiable proof, not mathematical formulas to show that it is possible. So much seems to be up for grabs these days in Science. Have you ever examined ‘Void Cosmology’. It seems to be proving that the earth is what they have termed ‘the axis of evil’, because they’re finding that it is at the cross roads or axis of the warm & cold voids meet. It has some honest Scientists scratching their heads. It seems to point to geo-centrism. Anyway, I’m not saying its all true. But maybe some more brilliant & honest thinkers than myself will stand up & give it a serious evaluation. I don’t think that verbal abuse gets anyone anywhere, except create hard feelings. I’m not certain of anything anymore, except that my Lord & Savior & King, Jesus Christ, the ‘Memra’ of God has conquered both sin & death for me. Thanks for reading this if you do.
So why are so many of the galaxies, assuming they are real photos of
genuine galaxies, flat? Why would God make so many galaxies flat &
yet He couldn’t possibly have made the earth flat? There are many
scientific proofs that have been done showing that the earth doesn’t
have curvature. Based on the accepted formula for measuring curvature
[8″ x the # miles squared], no one at sea should be able to see a 250
foot tall lighthouse from 28 miles away, & yet they can, on any
clear night. 8″ x 28 x 28= 6272 inches = 522 feet below the horizon.
That’s 272 feet below the top of the lighthouse! All of Chicago can be
seen from 57 miles across Lake Michigan at Grand Mere Park 23 feet above
Lake Michigan. If we add a 6 foot tall man to that we have 29 feet,
which subtracts 7 miles, assuming curvature. This is impossible if the
earth is a globe. Do the math 8″ x miles squared. 8″ x 50 x 50 = 20,000
inches = 1667 feet below the horizon. The tallest building in Chicago is
the Sears Tower [1729′ w/ antenna]. The antenna should barely be
visible. Yet, the whole city is visible. And this is no mirage or else
it would be upside down & floating on the horizon. There is example
after example of this type of phenomenon on the Internet, showing no
curvature. How does modern Science, which claims that the earth is
spherical, explain this easily repeatable ‘observation’ which is the
very definition of Science [conclusions based on repeatable
experimentation]. This is a very simple example & one that has never
been satisfactorily explained. As far as the earth being stationary, do
some research on the Michelson/Morley Experiment [the year 1887], 2
scientists who were, both, very disappointed when their data came back
proving a motionless earth. I know that almost no one will examine these
things with an open mind, because it seems ridiculous. It did to me, as
well, not very long ago. But I decided to give it an honest
examination. If you are mocking the idea of a motionless flat earth,
even though all your senses tell you it seems that way, it only shows
that you have not done any honest unbiased examination. I feel sorry for
your lack of curiosity. And this time I have spent has not hindered my
proclamation of the Gospel. I agree that it isn’t part of the Gospel,
but that doesn’t mean it has to be a hindrance, either, not any more
than believing we are spinning @ 1000 mph around the equator & are
traveling around the sun at 67,000 mph & through the Milky Way at
500,000 mph. Even though I am not 100% certain that the earth is flat
& stationary, at least I can safely say that I will not mock the
view, even if it seems to be nonsense to the many who are either,
professional or amateur scientists.
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Dear Dr. Heiser,
Thank you for your response and taking the time to correspond with me. I, Maryann will not claim that I understand completely such matters…somethings too lofty for me. I appreciate your intellect and your love for Jesus Christ.
I do understand within the Scriptures for proper hermeneutics, one must understand the literature one is reading. In its proper place, one must look at the content to understand what the writer is trying to convey. Therefore, as you are well aware, there are prophecy/apocalyptic writings, poetic writings, historical narrative, and didactic– all these writings much be interpreted in its proper setting, if one is going to exegetically do God honoring interpretation. I am aware that within one book we can have a mixture of these styles. Eziekel is clearly apocalyptic and Genesis is mainly a historical narrative. That doesn’t mean there is nothing historical in Eziekel or nothing in Genesis that is symbolic. However, there must be a reasonable cause assuming something in a historical narrative to be symbolic. Therefore, I recognize Eziekel 31 to be metaphorical.
The Scriptures you had stated above I agree with your interpretation, but I am still having a problem with agreeing with your interpretation of Genesis. I believe in the literal meaning of Genesis in Chap. 1…literal day and night 24 hours day. Would you agree with that? I believe the creation of the universe was a supernatural occurrence….not a natural one. Therefore base on your logic, modern science has no just place to discredit God’s supernatural work. I do not throw out modern science, but I believe God requires me to have discernment. I would way heavily on what history has to say. I believe those great men were intellects beyond compare. As I study Scripture, I rely and consider what the early Church and its Fathers had said and their conclusions are always considered first —more than embracing what modern Christianity and its writers have to say.
I guess for me, what the problem is, I see Genesis as largely a historical narrative which makes it literal. Therefore, I must examine/consider those Scriptures carefully that state a geocentric universe. Again, thanks for hearing me, though I may not have accomplished anything in this conversation. I appreciate your work. May God bless you.
Interestingly, the math used in Einstein’s general theory of relativity was ‘discovered’ though a pure logical construct and well before Einstein ever was born. If God does exist, perhaps this was part of a plan. Presumably, we have brains for a reason.
A decent illustration of the point I just made about faith and reason.
Is our education system now so woefully inadequate that anyone sane can really believe the earth is flat or the center of the universe?
If there is a God, presumably he/she/it gave us brains to use.
correct (see my About section).
This is the first time I have ever seen your website, but I will be reading more of it. I don’t think the bizarre belief system is necessary a result of stupidity. I am beginning to wonder if the fundamentalist movement attracts the mentally ill. It is alarming. For example, my sister-in-law believes not only that the earth is flat, but also that there are no planets, because there is no mention of planets in the Bible. Science is a deception by the devil. The moon landing is faked. Everything to her is a conspiracy. This woman is not stupid – she has a masters degree in education. Fortunately, she has not taught in many years because she and her husband are wealthy and she doesn’t have to work. My husband and I are both well educated (although in arguably more rigorous fields). My background is in science/engineering and law (I hold degrees in both), and my father was a geologist, so I am simply baffled by this idea of Christianity. I can only conclude it is some sort of mental illness that causes people to think these things. My husband was nonplussed by his sister’s most recent pronouncements (there are no planets and the “alleged” planets are actually stars).
Although I was raised in a Christian home, my parents did not subscribe to these bizarre beliefs either. (My parents have been dead for many years). However, with what is going on in our government and the growing power of anti-science fundamentalism in this country, I am increasingly horrified. I am beginning to think that mental illness has overtaken our country. What possible other explanation can there be? I do not say this to be flippant – it is a serious question.
I suspect you’re correct. It’s not an issue (necessarily) of intelligence, but something between brain washing and the good desire to hold a high view of Scripture. People are being handed a distortion of the latter that requires them to embrace such nonsense.
My initial spiritual context as a believer was in a fundamentalist context. They didn’t believe this sort of nonsense, to their credit.
I am beginning to wonder if they are mentally ill. See my post above.
I have long since concluded that religion is irrational. I still believe that parts of the Bible are beautiful – the Psalms, the Sermon on the Mount and so on. What I see today in modern Christianity or by modern Christians is not like any of that, of course.
I’d believe the opposite — that faith requires rationality. Believing in that which is *demonstrably* contrary to reality is irrational. Believing in something that the tools of science cannot verify, but which the tools of logic / reason can, is not irrational. It’s reasonable. In other words, if logical analysis says something is possible, it isn’t illogical to assent to its validity. That’s really what’s called “faith” in theological discourse. And we all have objects of faith that fall into that category. See the “About” section on my website for a bit more in that regard.
No, it would not be incontrovertible proof of God. If we are in fantasy land, one could presume there would be a different type of math and physics that might be consistent with that. Of course, that is all fantastical.
Jesus used allegory. If God does exist, perhaps he/she/it did not intend for the Bible to be taken literally. Moreover, it was written by human beings in a different time.
For those reading, see the third video at the link below — a simple explanation of how I view Scripture (and, truth be told, how I think we need to view it because it corresponds to reality):
http://www.nakedbiblepodcast.com/shows/
“This level of willful ignorance dishonors God.”
How about… “This level of willful ignorance dishonors God, and is a danger to our society.”? The anti-science crowd is infiltrating government and that should alarm rational people.
It could be mental illness. Other than that, or some sort of organic brain disorder, I can’t think of anything other than stupidity.
More conservatives have bizarre religious beliefs than liberals, so before you start criticizing Democrats or liberals, give that some thought. in fact, some of the rhetoric coming from so-called Christian conservatives IS bigoted and racist.
Well, I’d dispute this one. Belief in spontaneous generation of matter is pretty bizarre. So is the panentheism of lots of lefties.
Where in psalms?
“Why must man’s scientific knowledge rule our hearts? If I believed in NASA, then I would have to deny God
When he says he stopped the sun and moon for a day. ” Why do you believe that (assuming there is a God), he/she/it would give us brains only to expect us not use them?
Your comment, “Satan is doing a great job at mocking Christ and we are making his evil deceptions our reality” is exactly why it is useless reasoning with people like you. It is also what has made me cringe when I hear the word “Christian” in recent years.
(I know this is months later…)
I was reading a WAPO article on a hate crime shooting by an olathe, KS man who walked up to Indian engineers (from India) and hurled racial slurs and demanded they get out of *his* country. Then he started shooting and killed one young engineer who was well liked and a hard worker, These murderers are incited by people like Trump. I do not recognize what I once thought Christianity meant. I do not recognize the america where I grew up. When did it become taken over by the greedy, hateful, mean-spirited, bigoted, racist losers?
So all the Christians that believe the earth is a globe your “proof” is composite images, not real photographs, of earth from space from some Nazi scientists? It’s not hard to find out just how much they are faking. It boggles my mind how many Christians wholly reject evolution but completely dismiss the flat earth. We are told both from the time we can remember but one gets rejected easily yet the other sticks just because some occult organization says the earth is a globe. Flat earth makes evolution completely impossible and the flood much more explainable. The few verses Mike gave are not even close to the amount of verses describing the earth and it’s workings and his explanations are lacking. When you look down at a ball do you see a ball or a circle? Why would God see in 2D? The Bible doesn’t say earth is suspended in space it says it hangs upon nothing as in no thing. If it is set upon pillars is it hanging? The Bible says God made the firmament to separate the earth from the waters but according to the globe theory there is only outer space, yet during the creation it describes water. When Satan was tempting Jesus and took him to a mountain and showed him all the nations of the earth how could they see around the globe? Even if you say it was just the local nations the curvature of the earth would obscure everything after a couple dozen miles and that wouldn’t fit the temptation. God says heaven is his throne and the earth is his footstool but that’s pretty odd language for a spinning ball hurtling through space. Anything is possible but that hardly seems to relate to humans. He describes the sky as like a tent but that too makes no sense according to the ball earth. In Job God describes laying down the foundation of the pillars and the laying of the cornerstone all talk relating to actual building and would be a terrible metaphor for the system of gravity. He continually talks about the ends of the earth but if it’s a globe there are no ends. He refers to them at certain points as if they are actual ends of the earth. He says the earth is fixed and cannot move yet the globe theory says Earth wobbles and spins and orbits. In Joshua God made the sun and moon stand still which is totally feasible with flat earth but that causes so much chaos and problems for the globe. He says the sun is on a circuit like with flat earth but not if it’s a globe. He says the moon shines not reflects light. Flat earth is completely biblical however the globe model is not. God would not let so many untruths be in his word. He is not the author of confusion!
The heliocentric universe theory was started by caperneus then pushed hard by the Vatican and jesuits.just them goog ol sun worshiper boys.
But absolutely it’s needed to push evolution
You might want to learn how to spell Copernicus. This is flat earth scholarship…
This post was extraordinarily refreshing. Amen brother. Marantha!
I used to have a lot of respect for you Mike but no longer after reading this. Your blatant mockery of the Bible and words God chose to have in his word is very eye opening. You sound like you don’t believe a large portion of the Bible so how can you even call yourself a Christian? Are you calling God a liar since He speaks personally about laying the foundations and setting the pillars? You don’t get to pick and choose what to believe. I pray you forget the Nazi scientists at NASA for a bit and ask God to show you why this movement is growing and why many are coming to Christ because of it as well. I have personally helped lead a guy to the Lord because of flat earth. It shows just how special of a creation we really are to God. The globe model does everything it can to remove God. NASA admits we can’t go further than 400 miles from Earth so you don’t have to worry about hitting that “molten glass” firmament He describes that you don’t think is there. The original Gameboy had more processing power than the Apollo computer that supposedly took us to the moon. Crazy stuff since it wouldn’t have been able to make all the calculations necessary for space travel fast enough.
I’m mocking a dumb belief, not the Bible. Hard to believe you read the piece and came away with that conclusion.
So because youre a doctor and have a beard and sound intelligent it gives you the right to call people who used to believe the lies of silence dumb.these people unlike the scientist of our day actually do experiments say to test the curve or buy telescopes and look at the stars which look more electrical than nuclear fusion or whatever imaginery story they concoct. but because you saw it on television or heard it in a lecture that’s proof. youre worse than dumb, you just blindly trust at least these people have the courage to look at the world through their senses and test what they’ve been told, even if they’re laughed at or called dumb by the so called ‘experts’.i for one am tired of the experts reinterpreting what we see and hear and feel. oh i know focaults pendulum proves the earth spins…laughable! we see images of rockets in space or fake satellite pictures of the ball earth all laughable but its on tv. i haven’t completely made up my mind yet but i think im on my way to thinking there’s more proof to flat earth.
No, it’s because I affirm the technologies we all use (including you) and benefit from (also including you) that wouldn’t work the way they do if the earth was flat makes the idea dumb.
Not my beard or my degree.
I don’t suppose you took the post’s advice and listened to the series on the PseudoAstronomy podcast about the flat earth nonsense. You can get your “science” debunked there. Or any number of web pages that do the same thing.
Post some examples of technology that only work if the earth is a sphere. Sounds like you’re the one that won’t look at the alternative explanation or even give it a chance. What are you talking about, we’ve all grown up in this system, we know it well we’ve been indoctrinated from the time we could read. Surely you as a Christian don’t believe in evolution or that an explosion created all that we see. As a young child I always loved science, I started science clubs in my neighborhood and my brothers and I spent many a summer night gazing through our telescope. When I was 10, I watched in awe as we ‘walked on the moon’. My point is I don’t go through life in a daze I think things out. I don’t follow Hollywood and the music industry. I read books and think. I Know what the so called ‘evidence’ for the heliocentric model is and it’s weak. Surely also you don’t believe that the buildings on 9/11 fell from fire and Diesel fuel, especially building 7. The only reason I bring that up is if you do believe the official story it tells me something about where you’re coming from.
Post evidence that thousands of pictures of the earth from space are fake.
Exactly my thoughts, Sylvain. As I near the end of Unseen Realm, I wonder why I should believe the ANE conception of the Divine Council if the ANE conception of the cosmos is incorrect.
Hi Dr. Heiser,
I’ve watched a number of your video lectures, and I think the work you are doing is not only incredibly interesting, but desperately needed. But then, I get to your website, and find you mocking and ridiculing the truth of the flat earth and the people who know it to be true. It’s shocking to me that you can provide such a concise picture of biblical history, yet still be blinded by the globe earth deception, which is so easily demonstrable in a hundred different ways. In any case, I’m still ordering the books, because you have touched on a lot of interesting things that answer a lot of questions I’ve had during my life, but I pray that the Holy Spirit will open your eyes to the realization of the flat earth.
The scientists of today are the false prophets.
Matthew 24:24
“For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.”
I will never be deceived again. Praise Jesus, King of kings.
If you believe the earth is flat, you’re already deceived. Certain technologies you use every day or week depend on things like computer programming that assumes the earth is a globe. They work because it is.
Why was my post removed?
it wasn’t – I just don’t get to comments very often.
As a Christian, and a flat earth proponent, I feel the need to make the observation that OP and subsequent deniers of flat earth in the comments section fail to specifically address any of the flat earth arguments. Instead, the reliance is largely upon appeals to authority and ad hominem. That ANE cosmology is not to be taken literally, as argued by OP, isn’t a sufficient argument, either, for perhaps exceptions exist.
Further, scripture only substantiates my belief, and is not its foundation. Take, for instance, various earth curvature experiments which predict a decline in objects as they move progressively away from a stationary viewer. The predicted declines, based on the spherical globe model, are not observed. This, to me, is a sufficient argument for a flat earth, and I’ve yet to see it contradicted. Now, commence ad hominem and appeals to authority in 3, 2, 1…
I understand the incredulity and astonishment felt and experienced by anyone who’s new to this subject. I thought that the person who was telling me to look into this was absolutely crazy, and my respect for this person sank precipitously. It took me several months of hearing occasional appeals from this person, and I thought I was completely wasting my time in doing so, when on a whim I finally took a look.
I don’t expect to persuade anyone here of the legitimacy of flat earth arguments. The inclination to disbelieve is waaayyy to strong, as I’ve personally experienced myself. I would only here make a simple appeal to those who consider themselves open minded. Be cautious and pessimistic. Be absolutely convinced this matter is a complete waste of your time. Curse it. Dismiss it while shaking your head and rolling your eyes in utter disdain. Yet at some point, perhaps a distant point, just take a slight peek at a couple of the arguments, however painful this is for you.
I believe there’s a high probability you will be surprised. I was. Indeed, I was flabbergasted.
Cheers.
You have to believe that hundreds of thousands of pictures of the earth are faked. THAT is flabbergasting. The level of denial is stupefying. Anyone who’s listened to rebuttals of flat earth “science” (Stuart Robbin’s podcasts are a start) will see — if they aren’t bent (for reasons I still don’t understand) toward an uber-conspiracist view of life will see that there are comrehensible explanations for flat earth arguments.
NASA readily admits that there are no actual “pictures” of earth from space, only composites put together in Photoshop.
Of course they do — please send us all the press release or white paper on that. I’m trembling with anticipation.
Sylvain Durand – Thank you for your comments – And I do not share Dr. Michael S. Heiser’s understanding of how he interprets “the certainty of the words of truth” ~ as they are written in “the word of the Lord” ~ in the Holy Bible
As a ‘Biblical CHRISTian and Biblical ‘Literalist’ – I have for awhile now been doing a lot of reading the Holy Bible – and studying – and thinking about – and Praying – and asking for “the Holy Ghost” to guide me unto “the truth” Biblically
And one of my questions is
– Why the re-introduction’ of the already scientifically dis-proven ‘Flat-Earth’ Religious Philosophy / Belief / Doctrine of “oppositions of science falsely so called”? (1 Timothy 6:20 ~ AV)
– Why NOW during these very perilous Biblically Prophesied ‘Last-Times’? – For it was Prophesied thousands of years ago that there will be large scale increases of Satanically inspired and led ‘spiritual blackness’ – and confusion – and “deceiving, and being deceived”
Interestingly – the ‘Flat-Earth’ Religious Belief were/are also believed by
– the Ancient Pantheistic Babylonian and Egyptian Religions – which were founded upon Satanic and occult beliefs
– and the ancient Norse and Germanic pagan Religions
– and the non-Christian Greek poet Homer
– and by the followers of Hinduism – a polytheistic Religion
– and by the followers of Buddhism
– and by more and more followers of Mohammedanism aka Islam
– and by more and more followers of Atheism
– and by the followers of how many other “antichrist” Religions ?
– And then there is also the recent introduction of the Occult ‘Mandella Effect’
– And the ‘scientific experiments’ at CERN-LHC {and a number of other inter-linked ‘colliders’ and related ‘experiments’ at RHIC-RACF-BNL SuperKEKB TRIUMF Dark Matter & CDMS and how many other related and interconnected ‘scientific experiments’ and how much other Global ‘Technocracy’ like ‘GMO’s’ and ‘CRISPR’?}
– And then there was the openly Satanic rituals at the International ‘Gotthard tunnel’ opening ceremony in Switzerland
– And ‘Tomorrowland Belgium 2016’ {22-24 July 2016}
– And the Satanic/Occult Pokémon GO ‘augmented reality game’
– And the many other “antichrist” Religious beliefs’
– which have ALL been introduced RECENTLY – and/or are ongoing – RIGHT NOW !
I have come to the Biblical conclusion that they are all nefariously linked together as a deliberate move by “Lucifer”, “the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan”, “Beelzebub”, “the adversary” – and his lying counterfeit ‘un-holy spirit’
– and all of the untold multitudes of his ‘evil – and unclean – and seducing spirits’
WHY? To intentionally cause delusions and confusion among those who DO NOT truly believe “the certainty of the words of truth” ~ as they are written in “the word of the Lord” – the Holy Bible
For it is BIBLICALLY WARNED:
“For such are false apostles, deceitful workers,
transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
And no marvel;
for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness;
whose end shall be according to their works.”
(2 Corinthians 11:13-15 ~ AV)
– And – The ‘Flat-Earth’ Religious believers have made the personal choice to believe that “the Devil” has so much power that he has actually been able to COMPLETELY FOOL THE ENTIRE WORLD – including ‘Biblical CHRISTians’ – with ‘faked’ space exploration
– from the first modified V2 rocket sending back pictures from +/- 145 miles up of a curved horizon in 1946
– through the Russian and American sub-orbital and orbital flights
– then the landings on the moon
– and the many Space Shuttle flights
– and the various space stations – including the present ISS
– and all of the live weather satellite views for many years now
– and the missions to Mars
– and GPS
– and the growing numbers of non-governmental commercial space programs by several countries
– and how many millions of photographs
– and how many hundreds of thousands – or millions of hours of filming and videos – from 50+ different countries
– all by how many untold numbers of people directly involved in all of the various ‘space programs’
– ALL of these by “Satan” – “the god of this world” who can only COUNTERFEIT and CORRUPT that which is real – exactly as it is written in “the word of the Lord”:
“Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.
And he said unto the woman,
YEA, HATH GOD SAID, . . . . . . ”
(Genesis 3:1 ~ AV)
– About “Satan” ~ “the Lord Jesus Christ” personally WARNED ‘the Religious crowd’ of His time:
“Ye are of your father the devil,
and the lusts of your father ye will do.
He was a murderer from the beginning,
and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him.
When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.”
(John 8:44 ~ AV)
But – it is my Biblical understanding that these occurrences are all an ‘in process fulfillment’ of the ‘end-times’ Prophesy:
“But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse,
DECEIVING, AND BEING DECEIVED.”
(2 Timothy 3:13 ~ AV)
– And it is also my Biblical understanding that the ‘Flat-Earth’ Religious Doctrine – and all of the other false “antichrist” Religious beliefs – which have “a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof” – are the ‘in process fulfillment’ by “the Lord God Almighty” of Biblical Prophesy:
“And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish;
because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them STRONG DELUSION,
that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth,
but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”
(2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 ~ AV) & Isaiah 66:4 [AV]
AND the ‘Flat-Earth’ Religious Belief DOES NOT in any way “glorify” “the Lord God Almighty” (Psalm 115:1 ~ AV)
– For it is causing so much Contention – and Division – and Confusion by those who say that they are ‘Christians’ against those of us who truly are ‘Biblical CHRISTians’
– Which is in direct opposition to the Biblical COMMAND:
“Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:
That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God,
even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
(Romans 15:5-6 ~ AV)
.
The Bible says that no man should try and predict the end times. I am afraid you are hellbound for writing a comment on the Internet! 🙁 See you there!
Dear Mike, I love your work, I am a flat earther. I would say you are the man responsible for sending me down this path as your work through the years opened my eyes to world I never knew existed. But now look at me. I am insane, deluded, gullible and yes, stupid. thank you for that. You created this retard. But being the low brow Australopithecus that I appear to be- I admire your work and have received by the grace of YAH much enlightenment. So what does that say about you? Am I stupid and gullible for believing your work? Rather self defeating comments you have made about the Flat Earth Community. And not very Christian at that. How do your characterizations prove the Fruit of the Spirit.
The world you describe in all of your works is of a spiritual nature or a physical, earthly one that has long since past. You have only the Scripture and the writing of others from the distant past or the ruminations of theologians and educators in the present. None of it is Scientifically testable. Your works are wholly dependent on faith. How did you “scientifically” prove the Divine Council? Yet you believe it to be true?
For 31 years I was a Christian ball earthing science geek.Before that, an evolutionist. I believed by faith the truth of Genesis in spite of “Science” and all the “proofs” of evolution. At 33 years I woke up. How appropriate. May I remind you of 1st Tim 6:20. Avoid profane and vain babblings of “Science” [Gnosis] falsely co called. You have decried Gnosticism on many occasions but have your feet firmly planted in it. I will continue to follow your work in spite of the hate. Yah bless you and keep you.
Then it appears you haven’t understood what I’m saying. Wish I could do something about that. But to believe this you have to believe other things — like full human persons can exist in males (Heb 7), and that a woman’s hair aids in conception (1 Cor 11 — see the podcast episode on this). Point: the biblical writers believed a number of things about the natural world that are demonstrably not true. But that’s fine. God chose them to communicate truth in the language and knowledge at their disposal, not with language and knowledge not at their disposal. I don’t see it as being very hard to grasp.
I have a few questions for the Flat Earthers (just a few of the many):
1. If the moon is inside an impenetrable dome, then how did it become pockmarked with millions of meteor impact craters?…..and why did it turn green in the last week of April 2017?
2. Why does the FE model not make room for the fact that Alaska and the Arctic region experiences total daylight during the summer months, and total darkness during the winter months?
3. Why does the FE model indicate that during the month of Sept, the Sun is directly above the northern region of S. America, yet during this same month here in central U.S. I actually see it almost directly overhead (with my own eyes). In fact, I see the Sun itself almost directly overhead every single month of the year. I know what I see, and I know the Sun when I see it.
Somebody explain these please.
What might happen if a flat-earther circumnavigates the planet? If the person is honest, what happens to their belief that the planet is flat when they arrive at their starting point from the opposite direction from which they left for the big journey? Or sitting on top of Mary’s Peak in the Oregon Coast Range, looking west, sometimes you can see the curve of the earth where the Pacific Ocean meets the horizon. How is that explained?
Shame on you Dr Heiser. I am appalled at your demeanor towards other fellow brothers in Christ in this post. Your attitude is so shaming and condemning. This is not at all what I would expect from you, a Bible believing follower of Christ. For someone whose entire career is based on conducting research, you might do some (ok, a lot of) research on this topic yourself before weighing in so adamantly. You do a lot of research on some far-fetched ideas (UFOs, trauma-based mind-control, SRA, The Divine Council, etc) that require others to drop their pre-conceived notions, allow for some cognitive dissonance, and listen/watch/read with an open-mind and heart, but it is apparent to me that you aren’t willing to do the same on this matter. You may be missing out on something God is trying to reveal to you. Search your heart and seek God on this matter. True, honest valid research could never hurt.
I’m appalled that Christians could think so poorly and deflect unbelievers away from the gospel.
As for the opinion that the scriptures implying , for example, the sun moving in Joshuas long day, is only Joshuas perspective. How does one reconcile 2peter 1:20 with Isaiah 38?.
we have documents referring to the same real or alleged events but these are not necessariy eye-witness testimony. Documents of eye witness testimony are in reality very rare. Take the testimony about what the assassination of JFK — there are millions of documents on it, but that number of documents that constitute actual eye witness testimony, if they could be collected, would number in the hundreds or less. Kennedy died in 1963, now 54 years ago. We have eye-witness documents of his assassination written immediately after the event (which are more reliable than eyewitness accounts written much later, given the fallibility of memory). One of the best attested gospel events is the baptism of Jesus. We have no eyewitness account, since none of the evangelists was present on that occasion. The Gospels were written from about 40 to 80 years after that event. So we have reliable tradition but no eyewitness accounts. Other events recorded are not reliable tradition since it is easy to find reasons why they would have been invented or because the accounts of them differ from one source to another. That is, they do not have strong historical reliability, but their religious reliability remains. It does not matter if Jesus has a conversation with a good thief on Calvary (as only Luke recounts), for example, or actually said the words “Father forgive them for they know not what they do” (again only in Luke, and not even in all mss of Luke). The points being taught in such anecdotes are of a spiritual order.
I saw the video that went viral about a guy proving the earth is flat by using a spirit level on a plane. I thought it must be a hoax. Then I found this thread and found hosts of people passionately defending flat earthism. Their extraordinary stupidity and willful obtuseness seemed strangely familiar. Then I realized I was looking into the abyss of stupidity and willfulness that gave the world President Trump and exposed the USA to unprecedented ridicule. Those whom the gods wish to destroy they first make mad.
Dr. Heiser, you’ve taken such a beating in these comments from folks that believe this flat earth nonsense that I thought this might be a good place to put this: Well done! I just found your work a couple of weeks ago and I’m so excited about it. I’ll never be a Hebrew, Greek or ancient near-east culture expert, and so I really need what you provide! God bless and use your work to help people know and reflect God!
I delete the idiocy — my site will not become a clearing house for idiocy. But the posters keep posting, apparently not realizing that. A vivid illustration if you think about it.
Science says the earth rotates around the Sun. Joshua missed the message. That guy stopping the sun and moon and having the nerve to even name the 2 regions to stop them. . Guess God fooled him
Do you realize that if you deny the round earth then you deny this was a miracle?
Dr. Heiser,
I have the utmost respect for you. In my humble opinion you are an intellectual giant in today’s age. However, I do take a literal view of the bible. Using your logic Dr. Heiser, the Resurrection would be contrary to reality would it not? When is the last time that science has brought the dead back to life? Harmonization of faith from the Scriptures and what we perceive as science is not possible. Does the lengthy lecture that Yahweh gave to Job ring any bells? Who are we to pick and choose what we are to believe from the bible?
While arguing if the earth is either a round flat object with a dome or if it is a spinning rock going around a meandering sun is inconsequential in my humble opinion the seven day creation week is not. If we could do away with the creation week and substitute it with the evolution model then the 10 commandments become obsolete. Who inspired Moses in Exodus 20:11? The wisdom of man is foolishness to our Creator.
See this link and the last question. My position is quite logical, based as it is on God acting in history with specific intent.
https://drmsh.com/frequently-asked-questions/
The flat earth is a lot like the bible. The bigots with closed minds always want to speak out. Those who have studied and researched the least are those who oppose thinkingbfor them selves the most. Many people who, like you, haven’t done their home work, would bash the bible, and call believers stupid. You discarding your own followers ideas is a sign of immaturity, pride and everything YHWH dislikes about haughty humans. There is no love or understanding of love, scripture, or a flat earth in your pompous opinions. You would rather spout out at those who you say follow you than to research deep, for yourself and draw you own unbiased opinion. You have obviously been brainwashed, hypnotized and taught well to regurgitate the teachings of the world rather that seeking humbly in prayer for what YHWH says. He should know best. Remember, YHWH says the wisdom and knowledge of this world is foolishness to the creator. “Science so called” is foolishness to YAH. The ancients were much more aware of the earth, luminaries, and how things really work that today’s bubblegum, microwave, Netflix, Facebook, skinny jeans culture will ever be. You should do your research before you draw conclusions about things you think you understand but are, in reality, blind to. I pray in the name of YAHAWASHI, TO THE FATHER AND CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE YAHAWAH, that he would humble your spirit, open your eyes, and bend you backward that you may reach and find the truth, not only about the flat earth but also about your own evil judgments and I’ll spoken words. Amen!
First, one needs to notice the lips around the Zionist agenda… Now, Dr. Heiser was raised on cold war propaganda (born 1956), which would include patriot chest beating “Spaceman” hype. This spoon fed world view has him marching to the beat of a worldly drum. Pop music, have you heard it lately?
LOL – I wasn’t born in 1956. Some real quality research here.
I totally agree with you, Sylvain , I too do not understand why Heiser attacks the way he does , I have been taken back several times by his responses …. why there are certain replies that he will not post ….. who are you to set yourself above all others , oh it is because you have a degree and you have studied and been privy to ancient writings ….. well did not the Pharisees know the law and the scriptures were not they supposedly above the simple man ….. Jesus proved them wrong time and again , I do not believe that the earth is flat either but surely I would not be so damn arrogant as you have been and possibly destroy any hope of bringing these folks along IN MEEKNESS to the truth ….. p.s. where is the context to disprove that it was Jacob that killed the enemy , remember the Blessing …..
I only go after what is harmful to the gospel — and this is. It’s not complicated.
This whole flat earth thing is distressing however when I meet a flat earther in person or on line I ask these questions.
1. Does believing in a flat earth make you better at your job?
2. Does it make you a better believer?
3. Does it keep anyone out of harms way?
4. Did Jesus, Paul or any of the biblical authors teach about a flat earth?
5. Did Jesus command His followers to promote a flat earth?
6. Does it help me overcome temptation and sin?
7. Does believing in a flat earth help me die to self?
8. Does it help me in being holy?
9. Does it help preach the gospel?
10. Does it help in making disciples?
11. If you promote a flat earth will Jesus say “Well done my good and faithful servant for believing in a flat earth?
12. Does promoting a flat earth out rank helping orphans and widows? Or visiting those in prison?
As you can see, believing in a flat earth does nothing. Especially when we look at what God and Jesus command us to do.
Something to think about.
Many are called but few are chosen.
See the earlier note on logic.
You say you can fly around Antarctica, are your a pilot and did you actually do it? ?? I don’t think so. The reason I ask is that, from Australia there was a rather large JET aircraft that gave tours of Antarctica then, on about the third or fourth tour they crashed, they say into a mountain, but no real evidence suggested that. Today no aircraft give tours to Antarctica nor do any aircraft fly over the south pole, because there is no south pole.
Curious logic … we can’t say something without actually having done it and have the thing we say be true.
Here’s one for you:
I can’t survive a leap off the empire state building. No, I haven’t done it.
That’s a little thing I like to call “logic” (or clear thinking).
Can you give me your impression on those who claim to “prove” flat earth ? Particularly this video ?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PKs7MpAirL0
It’s pseudo-science fueled by conspiratorial thinking — sadly in the name of Christ. resulting in driving people away from the gospel.
Dear Michael
First, the Jury is out for my independent thought on Flat Earth. I do however believe that pressure put on by your peers for your prior presentation which was very scholarly unlike the above commentary. I’ve been indoctrinated to believe the Earth is a globe. Science is supposed follow the follow steps:
OBSERVATION
HYPOTHESIS
PREDICTION
EXPERIMENT
The problem with gravity it is a theory base on Mathematics. Where are the experiments. The Bible does give use direction, examples and guidelines. In your above article you need to revise and not make an inference that people that “Test all things” to be mentally ill. I never take a scripture out of context but look at the purpose of the Book to the church of Thessalonica in First Thessalians 5:
Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.
15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.
16 Rejoice evermore.
17 Pray without ceasing.
18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
19 Quench not the Spirit.
20 Despise not prophesyings.
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
If we all believe in the word of God and that we are feebleminded, comfort us. A PHD does not give anyone authority to question. My research area is Socratic Techniques for Sales Professionals in the Pharmaceutical Industry. You are an expert in many languages. I am expert in business. I have followed the research guidelines for my thesis. With your article above you make your own interpretations, however you are what we call a “Selective Literalist”. If we believe that the Bible was written by men and inspired by God, why is that your above article also choses (Selective Research).
For example, physicists and astrologists are departing from the Copernicus model. If your argument aligns with science then we should do experiments, like God asked us to in Thessalonians. I am sure your argument will only be for the book of Revelation:
Revelation 22:18-19King James Version (KJV)
“I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.” As an expert in languages, can you tell me where the Hebrew, Greek or any other reference in the bible uses the word “Universe”? I hope you use eisegesis and not exegesis. There is good money in Seminaries too.
It is like the game Telephone as I teach this to first year college students. Each one of them represents a different listening and interpretation skill. Now we have over 300 iterations of the Bible. Good money in that right? There are too many “Black Holes” in Science. There is now proof that Darwinian theory does not fit into the scientific method and even Stephen Hawkins admitted that there could be some design. For a good documentary on this you may want to watch the documentary “The Principle”.
One Final Thought. And its humorous What the Bcom say to the MBA? I put in context of Jesus being asked a QUESTION: I LOVE QUESTIONS. Jesus would often answer a question with a Socratic Question (No Sacrilegious intent). But Jesus did answer this question in Matthew 5:
1At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? 2And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, 3And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. 4Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
3And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. 4Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
MBA Vs Bcom
A MBA and a Bcom go on a camping trip, set up their tent, and fell asleep. Some hours later, the Bcom wakes his MBA friend. ” look up at the sky and tell me what you see.”
The MBA replies, “I see millions of stars.”
B. Com:”What does that tell you?”
MBA ponders for a minute: “Astronomically speaking, it tells me that there are millions of galaxies > > and potentially billions of planets.
Astrologically, it tells me that Saturn is in Leo.
Time wise, it appears to be approximately a quarter past three.
Theologically, it’s evident the Lord is all powerful and we are small and insignificant. Meteorologically, it seems we will have a beautiful day tomorrow. What does it tell you?”
The Bcom is silent for a moment, then speaks.
“Practically…Someone has stolen our tent”.
2 Timothy 3:7 “Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.” This verse applies to the so called learned “Dr.” Michael Heiser. Despite the many verses in Genesis, Isaiah and other parts of the Old Testament that prove God’s flat earth truth (flat, circular, stationary and is the center of our “universe”) and no verse saying the earth is a ball or sphere as per Galileo, Copernicus, Roman Catholic Church, and NASA or pear shape as per Neil de Grasse Tyson, Michael Heiser thumbs his Hebrew nose at Jehovah and says God is a liar.
Be forewarned, Michael Heiser, because on Judgment Day before Jesus, you will have to answer to Jesus for misleading millions of atheists who will end in the lake of fire just like you will. You are not a believer in Jesus Christ as your Savior because you mocked God and the Old Testament.
Ouch… I beg you to please study the scriptures that allegedly say the earth is flat a bit more closely, especially the original hebrew (it does not say that, in fact it implies the opposite). And while you are at it,the other claims you make about womens hair and mens loins. It’s good to have an understanding of some hebrew and greek words or at least research it and also of the cultural habits and sayings in those times. To say, as a Christian, that “the Bible is scientifically inaccurate but it doesn’t really matter” encourages the “pick and choose” attitude many people have about the Bible already. The Bible is no scientific book but accurate when it touches on scientific points. If someone chooses to just read old, archaic, (partially) inaccurate translations in English (which to be fair only affects a small portion of the scriptures and particular words, often translated in ignorance), then you are missing out on one of the most important reasons to truly trust that the author of the Bible is indeed God and it further feeds the ignorant mindset of many anti-christian supporters that the Bible is useless and scientifically inaccurate and people who believe in it are idiots.
Yeah, I need to bone up on the original Hebrew to defend the flat earth. Guess my PhD in Hebrew failed me. Good grief.