The episode is now live. Trey and I chat with David Burnett on his research into 1 Corinthians 15 — how it connects back into Deuteronomy 4 and 32 and other divine council texts (like Psalm 82 believe it or not). Enjoy!
Naked Bible Podcast Episode 95 – Resurrection and the Death of the Gods
Epic podcast by the way, and after listening it had me mulling over a barely related question. For as long as I’ve been a believer, I’ve heard: “An idol is anything that competes with your love for God.” Examples of material possessions or career are usually mentioned.
After a couple of years of your teaching, this is feeling like a “pat” answer. The first two commandments are about literally worshipping a different god than Yahweh, and creating images of other gods to worship.
What if you said this to a an Israelite circa 1000BC: “You are spending a lot of time building that chariot. You don’t want that to become an idol.” I’m guessing he would look at you like you were crazy.
The message of being fully devoted to Jesus and his kingdom is central to being a believer. But by defining idolatry as having a competing interest seems to be another attempt to minimize the reality of the supernatural world. Agree?
agreed – it’s a weak, incoherent pat answer.
There are a couple of passages (1 Cor 10:7-14, Col. 3:5) that combine lists of other sins with idolatry in way that might encourage that thinking. I still think if you remove the supernatural aspect, idolatry has no teeth. Why not just say someone had unbiblical prioties.
What an amazing podcast! I’m going to have to listen to it 4 or 5 times to digest it all, but wow! This is easily the most value giving site on the internet!
Burnett, Litwa, and Keener on the same panel at SBL? Now I’m definitely going!
Thank you for all that you guys do!
Regarding the sun and moon, did David mention that to Israelites these were actual creatures? So the sun and moon are elohim?
Not sure what the point is. Celestial objects were either thought to be deities or controlled by deities. A flawed thought about a deity doesn’t mean the deity doesn’t exist. Lots of people have pretty screwed up ideas about God … so is that an argument against God’s existence?
Again, the writers weren’t omniscient. No point of inspiration or theology requires that they were.
Mike I don’t see how that answers my question. Did David mention that according to Israelites the sun and moon were celestial creatures? If the answer to that is ‘yes’ does that make the sun and moon ‘elohim’ (by your definition of what an elohim is)
The earlier answer does answer this — just not in a way you want to hear.
I don’t presume the writers to be omniscient, and it doesn’t matter if they were. There are plenty of other passages that identify the gods with the spiritual (non-natural) world. They are spirits. That ancient people saw something in the natural world (a celestial object) that they mistakenly connected to the spiritual world doesn’t negate EITHER (yes, there is a sun; yes, there is a spiritual world).
It seems you’ve been reading fundamentalist Jews or Christians when it comes to issues like inspiration. I don’t buy their presuppositions about how to think about the production of Scripture. Consequently, my own responses won’t reflect those presuppositions.
You are assuming I am making some critic or judgement call here. I’m not. It’s just a factual based question. I just wanted to know from an ancient Israelite perspective if they would have considered the sun and moon to be a type of lesser elohim under Yahweh’s dominion.
I already know and understand your perspective of inspiration. I’m not discussing that here (though I do think there are some logical and theological holes in it, and not something that is going to get settled anytime soon).
There’s aren’t any holes in my view of inspiration. I’m not claiming it’s “the” way to look at it. It’s just one of several possible perspectives. Each perspective derives from certain presuppositions. All of mine have been held and defended well (for logical coherence) for millennia, so I think I’m safe in saying the above.
You’re welcome. Yes, I’m looking forward to the Q & A. If you are there, we need to meet and sit together.
I’d be honored! I’ll email you in November re: best time and place to meet up. Never been to SBL before. Very much looking forward it.
email me about this; I can’t follow these sorts of discussions in comments.
You love us Father God ! This produces the very living word that is putting forth. It was great to hear you guys synchronizing and enjoying the sons of God council . I had to comment on this, because this one touched on something so simplistic. That the scholars simply were not going back far enough ! And I think this Podcast just by itself, has the power to launch us into a new era of biblical scholarship if one listens to the very relevant statements in it. Another important work that is being done in this area is a work being done by Victor Alexander in his going back to the Ancient Aramaic ,more spiritual language and context, which was before the Grecian context. I have learned something recently that I had not known, and that is that one of the reasons that the NT was passed on in Greek was that there where FEWER copies made of the Ancient Aramaic . This makes so much sense. We like things that make sense around here . Now I know Mike has given me to understand that there was only One text that was actually from the Ancient Aramaic and some believed it might be a ” Back translation” But , what does it matter EVEN IF that is true ? The idea is the same as you guys were discussing at the end of the Podcast. Useing the more spiritual and ancient ways of thinking, context, which Victor Alexander’s work Definetly does. ( specifically speaking about the last part of the Podcast where you get into the discussion about getting back to the deeper roots) I mean, he has one of those few Ancient Aramaic texts in his possession. Anyone can go to his website and read about this. He recently started a blog, and it is amazing the feed back he is getting. The same awesome thing that is happening here. I really decern that these two revelatory works synchronize. Zephaniah 3;9 says ” He shall make One Pure language” , —Glory all you stars of God !
I posted a comment/question yesterday, and it was awaiting moderation but I could see it. It’s now disappeared. Is it gone? Should I attempt to repost?
Hopefully it’s here now.
Not sure what you mean by an Aramaic “back translation”.
This was one of my top five episodes of Naked Bible. That was rapid fire Enochian Divine Council goodness!
agreed!
This one was great as always
A fascinating and excellent episode (along with many others). This confirms my own understanding of this subject, particularly in relation to NT eschatology. My main area of disagreement would be the traditional view that these things are still future (which view you appear to hold). The whole NT consistently points to that 1st century generation as the ones who would experience the defeat of the dark powers at the ‘coming of the Son of Man’ – an event that was to occur in the spiritual realm/dimension (as per Daniel 7). It was near, soon to occur, about to happen, as all the NT writers testify – as that generation were already experiencing “the ends of the ages” as Paul put it.
Jesus made it clear that all things spoken of in his Olivet Discourse would occur before that generation (i.e. “this generation”) had passed away. This is especially evident in Luke 21. He also indicated that some of his apostles would not taste death before they would witness the full establishing of the heavenly kingdom with power (i.e. in their lifetime; Matt. 16:27-28). These sons of God would be the firstfruits who would experience the First Resurrection at the Royal Appearing (Parousia) of Christ in the heavenly assembly at the end of the Old Covenant age when Jerusalem and the temple would be destroyed. This would begin a whole new age of Christ and the Holy Ones or new Sons of God ruling over the nations of the world (a symbolic 1000 years) with the powers of darkness having been subjected after being thrown to ‘earth’ or ‘the abyss’. We appear to be living in the era when the Dragon has been released to deceive the nations again en masse before a final Consummation (Rev. 20).
Jesus is clearly portrayed as the new Moses who would lead the true Israel into the promised eternal Inheritance within one generation of 40 years (i.e. 30-70 AD). I do not believe that Jesus, or Paul, or any of the NT writers were mistaken in their clear language that these things were near and that Christ’s ‘coming’ was to occur soon, in that generation. That is why Paul was so determined to complete his mission to the nations of the Mediterranean so urgently.
I am convinced that the glory of the New Humanity in a New Creation already exists in the unseen realm, ruling from the New Jerusalem. This is consistent with the whole message of the NT in context. I am in the process of writing a book on this whole subject. Thanks for all your scholarly research and info, which has aided me in my own studies. I hope you find my input thought-provoking and interesting. I have some articles on these things on my website, including a chart entitled The Three Phases of Satan’s Defeat here: http://www.purposeoflife.org.uk/prophetic_plan_contents.html