One of the response to my re-visitation of “Heiser’s Laws for Bible Study” prompted me to bring up something I’ve been thinking about. I have some questions to which I’d be interested to read your responses (collecting feedback; that’s all):
1. If I posted video sermons / biblical content (by me) on a weekly basis would that be something you think I should be doing?
2. Although such a thing wouldn’t properly be a substitute for church (e.g., no community, at least ostensibly), would it be more of a supplement or substitute for you / others?
Here’s what prompts the question in the bigger picture.
I get a lot of email or have a lot of conversations with people who are disgruntled with the teaching they get at church. Maybe I get too much of it to be rightly perceiving things, but it seems to me that every church has Christians that ….
- Know they aren’t being taught anything of substance or depth
- Suspect they aren’t being told the whole story about what Scripture is about
- Recognize that there has to be more to Scripture than what they’re getting (parenting platitudes, self-help, SS stories, character sketches)
Over the course of the past few years (maybe decade) I’ve developed something of a sense (right or wrong) that Churches have a number of thinking people who want to be intellectually and theologically stimulated, but aren’t. That is, they are frustrated with the lightweight teaching they get each week. Church for them has basically become a weekly rehearsal of the most basic elements of Christianity. Every Sunday reviews who Jesus is, what he did, and the fact that we need to follow his example now in the way we live. Those things are important, but they are rudimentary.
The message I keep hearing is that “Sunday School shouldn’t be forever.”
Again, I’ve felt this way for a long time, but am willing to be told it’s because of my own over-exposure to my In box. I just feel that I ought to be doing something to help if the numbers are there.
Thoughts?
Dr. Heiser,
To answer your 1st question, should you be doing this?
Well, you already are through Logos not to mention your teachings available through your local congregation and what’s viewable on YouTube. So, to make a commitment for a once a week teaching , I think, shouldn’t be that much of a stretch.
Question 2.
It would be a supplement (for me) with an opportunity to better equip at the local level. In fact, I’m already there with your teachings when I speak with my fellow pew sitters.
If the numbers are there, which I hope they will be, with your next 2 volumes due to released in about 6 months or so, the timing for this project couldn’t be better.
Hope this helps a little,
Vincent S. Artale, Jr.
What I do at Logos actually isn’t a lot of video output (when it happens, it is done over a one week span).
I’m not actually planning anything definite here. It’s sort of in the mental queue.
I’m nearly ready to take something like you’re suggesting as a substitute for going to church. I simply get nothing out of the church I go too, and I don’t have any better alternatives in my area. However, I still worry about being part of a physical community, and I also am concerned about not taking the Lord’s supper periodically. Anyway, I’m certainly interested.
I hear you; this lament (and its concern) are common to the interactions I’ve had. I’m not sure what can be done about the community element, though some have floated a few ideas. Still thinking about it.
Dr. Heiser,
I have a suggestion regarding the community aspect. You could have an only group of those who “attend” the studies and have a place to interact. Off the top of my mind I think that forums that pertain to a given message could be grouped together. Other forums could be seperate. For a more live interacton, google hangouts could be used for that.
Here’s the one (!) thought that popped into my head in this regard. You can tell me where it differs from what you’re thinking.
I post a sermon/lesson (I don’t care what it’s called) every Sunday or Sat night. Then have 1-2 video chat sessions with whoever is interested to discuss it. This would depend on what it would cost and my technical aptitude threshold (which is pretty low).
That is right on with what I was thinking. I am not sure on the logistics though. Additionally, recording the video chat would be a plus for those who can be involved during those time periods.
The chat / audience thing has come up in emails (things not posted here), so that is good to hear; it’s stimulated some ideas.
You hit it on the head! This is why I started my training at Koinonia Institute, so I could bring a mature sensibility to a watered down church that is more concerned about making people happy then teaching them the truth.
This is why I follow you, Douglas Hamp and Chuck Missler, so that I can dive deep into the Bible, the truth, and not the religious mess that church is.
Truth be told I’m creating a gym/coffee house company that will be able to support itself and where we teach right in the coffee house, and where we can attract people of the street through the combat gym.
People are looking for truth, but they’re being fed twinkies.
So yes (sorry for my rambling)!
This is interesting. I keep meeting people who are basically bypassing what the church isn’t doing in an effort to get those same things done. (If that convoluted sentence makes any sense). I can’t recall just now if you’ve read The Portent, but this problem is an under-current in the book. Brian finds himself among people whose attitude is to just get things done.
1) absolutely!
2) both: substitute, since my work schedule doesn’t allow regular church attendance; and supplement to the other sources I use for biblical education.
Hadn’t thought of the schedule thing; makes sense, though.
Mike…this is exactly the way I feel. I really am looking for some good teaching about what the Bible is really saying. I do not want my ears tickled. I want the truth…no matter how much it might hurt or turn my world upside down.
What videos of yours that I have seen in the past (along with all the posts, books, and such) have really been a blessing. I know that there are others out there who, like yourself, are doing their best to provide some meat for the believers out here who do not have the time or aptitude to really dig into God’s Word. Unfortunately, most of them are not the ones who are up front in the pulpit on Sunday mornings.
If you were to post videos (or even just do an audio podcast) on a regular basis, I would be watching and/or listening. I’d also probably be asking lots of questions because that’s just the way I am. 🙂
Here we go again (see other responses) – people out there within churches taking it upon themselves to do the task that isn’t getting done.
I would watch your lessons (already do on youtube actually), and am grateful and better equipped for them. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed ‘I dare you not to bore me with the Bible’.
Our church began a Sunday evening study on deep theological issues which has become quite popular for this very reason. I’m 37 and I experience my generation quite engaged in the details and depth. We hired a scroll scholar on staff to begin to address this very issue, bridging the gap between academic scholarship and knowledge/maturity within the church.
I really appreciate your work.
Kindly,
Will
wow – kudos to the leadership at your church for doing that. Thanks.
YES DO IT PLEASE! There are so many of us out here, as you described that would welcome your effort to help us get in depth teaching.I’ve watched the “quality of teaching” from the pulpits slide for the last 30 years to the point that at present it’s a vertical, terminal slide downhill.If God could vomit at the disastrous wasting of the “Christian mind” we’d all need rain suites and extra thick umbrellas.
Time for a confession – I laughed at “vertical, terminal slide” – a good line, but not really funny, obviously.
Hey, I’m Jewish and I would enjoy such videos!
Stuff like this: https://drmsh.com/2014/09/08/sanctified-dirt/
is really good. (if that is the sort of things you are talking about posting)
You’re awesome 🙂
Anything by way of 5 min videos or even 30 min, depending on point being made, would be nice. I’m thinking podcast style, but YouTube or Vimeo would be a great vehicle of course.
Even if you just cover short passages and gave insight into the historical context/language and how it should inform our spiritual lives, pointing out flawed teachings on the same matter and why they are flawed. Also, pointing out excellent references, commentaries as you often do in your blogs, so we know what we should be adding to our libraries and can trust are scholarly (and yet be readable).
I’ll suggest a silly phrase, “short and sweet can still be deep”, as a worthwhile reason to produce such content. Even in 5 minutes, one verse broken down could be a great start to someone’s day. Especially if it ties into to say more thorough content in longer format. I’m thinking, I guess, like singles and albums to borrow a musical analogy.
Basically like blog posts, brief (but insightful) videos could meet our initial hunger pangs for deep thoughts and of course that same content you could compile into sermon/classroom like productions as time and motivation allowed.
Truth be told, you could start by just reading aloud your blog posts, which might seem odd, but for people like me with short attention spans it’d be great. 🙂 I think there are lots of us that enjoy listening to good spoken word while doing whatever else we need or want to do.
Just some thoughts.
Oh, I didn’t address your 2 points directly.
1. “should” is such a strong word. ha. Let’s just say, yes it would be great. Particularly, having content you’ve mostly only written on in audio/visual format is always desirable for reaching more people in need of such content.
2. It would supplement, fill in the gap, in many ways for those of us in some sort of fellowship presently, but I also would say it’s useful for those transitioning, or without a local fellowship for whatever reason, and could serve as something to sustain them until they can get back into a group for more direct human contact. Your content could feed those in the spiritual deserts. 🙂
Thanks for this, even the “excess”; good stuff for thinking about this.
I’ll be brief and to the point.
To both of your questions…… a resounding “YES”!
I crave what you teach and perpetual Sunday School has turned me off of church.
To be more clear on answering the second question.
It would be substitute as I don’t go to church for reasons stated above.
I hear you. I’ve met a good number of people who say the same thing — so many who leave church yet have more desire for biblical things than many who stay.
I think the answer is for people to get out of Protestantism. Cut and run. The lack of depth you bemoan (and believe me, it’s the biggest thorn in my side) is not such a problem in Catholic and Orthodox churches. If people stay in Protestantism, then by and large the prosaic dullness of such churches, to be found on every corner, shall never be overcome, because it is in their very spiritual DNA to think the Book is the faith, and to interpret it at a high school level. The exceptions prove the rule. It’s time for Christians to get in touch with 2000 years of Christianity, not 500. Christianity should not have bare walls and no Eucharist. A Psalm is something that is sung, not read as prose.
But most in America will surely die in their tidy lukewarmness. The spiritually adventurous are few, especially where I live in Kentucky, the land of “church for dummies”.
Let me add a PS:
Protestant Christianity, by largely rejecting the symbolic dimensions of the faith so well communicated by means of holy image, liturgy, sacrament, holy tradition, and even the smell of incense and the glorious flicker of candlelight, is robbed of depth from the get-go. Traditional, pre-Protestant Christianity effectively appealed to all five senses to communicate Truth. But in a middle American church, most everything is reduced to hearing words (and some pop-oriented music), and the words are often repeated and rudimentary.
agreed on the senses — and having some sort of liturgy (not speaking of high church here) can give meaningful structure for those who pay attention to it.
No, I must disagree about high church. The early Christians were poor and had to work underground, but it is the right of Christians to know beauty, to know a respite from the mundane. The lack of a thriving symbolic life for most Christians has resulted in a pop culture stepping up to fill the gap with every kind of trivial and profane ugliness, including a Hollywood constantly regurgitating themes of violent Paganism. I feel like I am only talking to myself somehow, but this opinion is important to me. I know its gravity and I deeply feel its consequences.
Not sure you understood; I wasn’t promoting high church. I meant that I don’t see liturgy as = high church.
Nope, I understood your point about high church (liturgy does not necessitate high church), and what I wrote was my reply on the matter.
In reply to Andrew…what?!?! I’m interested in studying the Bible, not “churchianity.” And what’s up with Catholics praying to everybody but the Son of God? Hello! That’s an example of “churchianity.” No, thank you!
In one respect, I agree (a bit), particularly with E. Orthodoxy. I have friends in there for whom the divine council is not a foreign concept. I have other issues with their doctrine, though. Catholicism just isn’t on that level. It’s theologizing, with little root in the biblical text (I speak here of church — I know several biblical scholars who are catholic and lament this with regularity — not Catholics who are biblical scholars). Again, I have serious disagreements with points of doctrine.
I’d also disagree with respect to Protestantism in some respect – reformed Baptists and certain Presbyterians are well beyond what happens in most evangelical churches (which I think is your real target – and they are of course Protestants).
I think there is a dearth of *biblical* literacy across the board. But where there is a (denomination) tradition or filter to pass on, more can happen in churches (in terms of content) than when there is no such tradition. Modern evangelicalism is an example of the latter, which in part explains why the pulpit content is so pitiful – self-help, character sketches, spiritual anecdotes with stand up comedy, and the gospel repeated week after week, ad infinitum. They have little or nothing to say beyond that, whereas Orthodoxy, Catholicism, and various Protestant traditions can dip into the well of their tradition.
Admittedly I mentioned Catholicism to kind of strengthen my argument, and not look like such a shill for the Christian East (which I, being Armenian, certainly favor). But you’re right, Catholicism was marred by Scholasticism and is not on that level. Thanks for nothing, Averroes.
Remember: every book of the New Testament, except Revelations, is incorporated in the Orthodox liturgy that people hear and recite. The influence of that can be expected to stick. But it’s true these people should also read their Bibles more, and actually print them (can you believe that to this day the Coptic Church of Egypt uses Evangelical Bibles, which don’t even contain their whole canon?)
I am not in the same boat with the minority of Protestants that strictly follow the Bible, either. I study the Bible more than most, but I have a liberal idea of scripture, and my Bible is not my Koran. The Word is Jesus Christ.
That’s Eastern.
I fully concur!
I came from catholicism when I was young, then my parents switched to Pentecostalism, sadly, which I always felt has no depth.
I agree that E. Orthodoxy has the upper hand in the traditional churches.
I do like the baptists, very learned normally!
I’m currently going to the C&MA, which doesn’t have the tradition I would like, however they believe in knowing their bible!
I have a friend who, until recently, pastored a C & MA church (at least it began that way) and would agree. My own orientation (as a teenager) was Baptist. It’s a tradition that (in the evangelical orbit) tries to take Scripture seriously. That said, they have their own theological grid through which many things are sifted.
Aptly put!
We need a modern monastic order!
Maybe make a social media site devoted to an online monastic order, there you go, no charge
LOL!
Kentucky born and bred here.:)
And hailing from a very large family that is known, on both sides , for being inquisitive and spiritually adventurous,(sometimes too publically).lol
“Church for dummies land” is everywhere. Believe me. Been there, done that! The same can be said for other religions as well.
The fault lies largely with the leadership not the congregation IMO.
Laughed at this – and caught the earlier reference, too. I still think that church leadership under-estimates the interest and intelligence of a good % of their congregation. I’ve had a lot of ideas about ministry beaten out of me by real life, but I’m still clinging to this one.
Yes, please seriously consider a weekly!
There is no substitute for spending consistent time with other believers. Supplements are essential!
God bless your willingness to share.
a shared lament right now!
1. I would say should is a bit strong. I would appreaciate your doing so. Additionally, I would like to have print materials or availabity for download to watch later.
2. While I don’t think it is a substitute for “church” per se, I do think it is importent. I work most weekends and don’t have the ability to go to a building.
Keep up the good work!
Where do I sign up !!!!
You lurker! Send me an email – we should go out for breakfast or something. Would like to catch up.
Sounds good
This is just my take on it but, I would vote yes twice.
As a guy who has been to just about every type of church service one could imagine I can say that your sense of things is pretty spot on. I also work with, and around, a lot of very smart people in a very secular job and yet somehow, God or Christianity seems to come up quite a bit in passing conversation. One thing all of the people I end up in conversations with have in common is they are either disillusioned because they don’t like being talked down to, or they are on fire and off fire for all the wrong reasons. Most have given up on going to Church and some, like you say above, go through the motions and attend every week as if it’s an obligation or duty that must be done, but with little joy and no heartfelt anticipation in hearing the amazing word of God delivered to them in the way it was meant to be represented.
It reminds me of how history is taught in America; very dry and politically correct readings of the same old historical “facts”, delivered many times in a way that leaves out the original context of the people and situations that are the core of the lesson. The students feel little if any connection to the historical “cartoon” characters they’re supposed to be learning a lesson from and therefore retain very little of the information. History teachers do this because they think that kids may not be ready for some of the facts but what excuse do pastors and church leaders have?
Just like the kids in history class, I think my co-workers and most church goers are being failed by the people they trust to learn from.
Christians are hungry for the scripture but end up starving at church. I think you may have the meal that a lot of people are craving.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I’ve been kind of amazed by the responses (so many).
To answer, yes.
I watch pastoral conferences all the time, online, ie. Macarthur, Sproul, etc.
They are constantly concerned with either the direction of the church itself or the lack of proper teaching (expository, etc.) and/or the growth of the mega-churches, or whatever.
Often the implication is that people just want their ears tickled so they go away from sound doctrine to something fluffy.
Of course this is true in some cases, but not to the degree that the leaders imply.
What I think is taking its toll on the average believer is the movement by the neo-atheists and those in entertainment and hollywood who use their comedic arenas as anti-christian and anti-bible platforms. Also, of course, the Bart Ehrmans and other liberal scholarship that challenge fundamentalism.
I bring it up on this forum because I think that these people and groups who are antithetical to christian fundamentalism often make good cases against Christian behavior (ie. hypocrisy) and/or contradictions or apparent flaws in the bible itself.
Cases that are not being dealt with by the church. Instead the fundamentalist leader will simply shake his/her head and dismiss the skeptic out of hand as a militant anti-christ.
Meanwhile, the on-looking layperson begins an inward struggle with the new-found issue, often feeling the church leader is unapproachable about the subject. Over time these issues compile and take their toll on the person’s faith. Eventually that person’s faith will morph into something hybrid or something new altogether.
I have personally found that facing the questions brought up by the skeptics often yields a new and more exciting truth about the scriptures, an alternative view that can make more sense and make the bible come alive in new ways (see, The New Realm, etc.)
So, yes, what we need is someone who will take on the anti’s agenda.
Thanks – insightful. And I of course agree that facing questions is a good thing, one that can open up the text like never before if one is willing to put forth the effort.
Stumbling across your site years ago was one of the best things to happen to my Christian walk. Your posts and videos have often challenged me and forced me to learn how to approach the text. Your availability to respond to comments and emails has mattered more than I can possibly tell you — your suggestions of books (Walton, Enns, Chevalier, Malina, Segal, and more) have been incredibly instructive and deepened my appreciation for the text. I LOVE studying the text now, and that’s due in no small part to the role you’ve played in making me aware of the depth that exists.
There is a price to pay, though. Honesty compels me to say that I have not yet encountered a person of any authority in the many churches I deal with in my ministry who can “hang”. And that’s not me patting myself on the back. It’s me being disturbed that men who have made this a career are not more educated in how to approach the text. I am a technical writer for a software company who writes fiction and non-fiction on the side and runs his own information marketing company in his “spare” time. There is no way I should be more well-read or conversant regarding scripture than the pastors or teachers I meet.
I am more aware than ever of my own incredible level of ignorance regarding the Bible; it disturbed the heck out of me to find out the (good, God-loving, well-meaning) men who teach hundreds and thousands on a regular basis shared my ignorance but were unaware of it.
I often have occasion when the lights are out and people have left to talk with speakers/pastors/evangelists over the last remaining slices of stale pizza or shriveled hot dogs that the kids didn’t eat. Natural conversation invariably turns to the text, and I cannot count the number of times I have (quite accidentally) mentioned a “Naked Bible” idea or concept to get either a blank stare, an indignant glare, or an excited/shocked look. And this is with me intentionally avoiding the things I KNOW would be controversial. No WAY am I bringing up the discussion of views on a historical Adam. But dangit, accidentally refer once to the editorial process that produced the text of Genesis and suddenly you start smelling lighter fluid. “Uh, Jim, what’s that stake for?”
And then there are the brain cells I lose every time someone refers to The Harbinger or The Four Blood Moons as “scholarly”. Or Left Behind as a “great Christian book/movie”. My intellectual reflex is to raise my eyebrows and go, “Well, actually…”
But these are invariably wonderful men and women with a heart for the things of God and a desire to teach and preach the gospel, so most of the time I just shut up and color and then drive home feeling like a jerk.
“Does it really matter, man? They love Christ and they’re doing his work.”
“Yeah, but what is the point of studying if you don’t teach what you learn? What if it’s your responsibility to point them in a new direction or make them ask new questions?”
No idea which shoulder-sitting whisperer is the angel and which is the devil. All I know is that most evangelists (and evangelicals, for that matter) are, of necessity, very certain in their theology and ideas.
Now that I’ve written War and Peace: The Revenge, I’ll wrap up by actually answering your questions. Yes, I absolutely want you to create as much web content as you can in order to feed my addiction. It would never really be a substitute, though. Why? Because it’s like saying eating organic vegetables and grass fed beef is a substitute for a Big Mac. I’m still going to go to McDonald’s to hang out with my friends, but I’m not going to eat that crap.
Running with the metaphor:
What you do is nutritionally necessary for everyone; those of us who know we need phytonutrients have as part of our ministries a call to lovingly educate the McDonalds theology crowd. We don’t need to force-feed them Naked Bible kale; we just need to let them know their current diet is missing a lot of what they need. If I can point someone your way, I think the content you create will win. Once they eat a couple meals of real food, they will be hooked. You’re the Trader Joe’s. Us flying monkeys in the cheap seats are the annoying uncle who keeps telling their family, “You gotta try Paleo, man!”
And…annoying flying monkey uncles have to eat, too.
Wow — and I understand the part about being disturbed even though I’m a scholar — because I meet people like you and others who frequent the blog (or at work) who aren’t trained for ministry, but yet have a much better grasp of so many things than pastors I have met over the years. They just think clearly and digest a lot of material. I’ve wondered more than once why I don’t see that coming from “trained” ministry and seminary students. It bothers me.
*Activate sarcasm font*
Who needs all that serpent-deity, Jewish astrology entertainment Mike when we have all these hurting people out here that need parenting tips formulated in an alliteration that serves as an object-lesson for the gospel? How on earth is sanctified dirt helpful to a hurting world?
Also, it really puts people off when you refer to Greek and Hebrew (unless you are reciting the ‘Abba means daddy’ illustration we evangelicals love) or when you mention that you have a PhD–basically anything that would academically distinguish you from John Hagee. Our congregation needs to know everyone is qualified to understand and interpret the Bible.
In fact, we aren’t saying you wasted decades of your life looking at language flashcards, but we are implying it. We have the Holy Spirit to interpret scripture for us. We don’t need the help of satanic pagan texts to understand the true God. You should have spent your long schooling career reading John MacArthur and Augustine’s books instead if you wanted to understand what the Bible is really about.
Sarcasm font crashed halfway through that! Quite funny – thanks! I have had people (Christians) ask me why I wasted my life pursuing biblical studies, though.
Yes
Yes
Having you teach more is a good thing for the Christian community, and a bad thing for Christian traditions.
Christo et Doctrinae!!!!
LOL – cutting to the chase!
Responses to your questions…
1. I would love to see this kind of content from you on a regular basis. What I get from church is very very basic and I am constantly searching online for good content I can use on a regular basis. The content you have provided through your books and sites is excellent. To have new teaching regularly would be fantastic.
2. I would not use it to replace church because I do love the community and fellowship I have there – but more in-depth teaching would be a very welcome supplement.
Glad to hear you have a solid community, and your own tenacity in supplementing your content diet is appreciated; it’s admirable.
I would definitely be interested in this kind of thing. I am one of the teachers at our church and have often incorporated things I learned from the old Memra courses into my teaching. People often come up to me afterwards with glowing comments about this type of information.
very good to know; always interested to know how things are spread and re-purposed.
Martin Hengel said, “if all you know is the NT, you do not know the NT”. I think he was not only right, not knowing the OT narrative can lead us into heresies.
Your area of expertise is very important and it needs to be factored in to our overall theology for accuracy. The more the merrier from my perspective.
Wow, a Hengel quotation! And what he said is spot on.
I’ve grown up in the Baptist church and honestly can’t think of too many times I’ve been intellectually challenged by my church(s) teaching. It wasn’t until a few years ago when I stumbled across you on Coast to Coast that I got a good introduction to how interesting the Bible is. Church is BORING and seems to be the same dog and pony show every week(no wander young adults are leaving the church in droves). God/Jesus/The Bible however are not and I’m very grateful for scholars such as yourself that have shown me that faith and reason go hand in hand. I’ve been very discontent, especially recently, with how little substance and actual Bible teaching I’ve been getting at my Church. I hate that I have to search outside to the walls of the church, but I’ve learned more from podcast’s and online material in the last few years than I have my 31 years in church. I don’t have a good answer for how to fix the church at large, but it weighs heavily on my heart. I believe there is a significant percentage of Christians that feel the same way I do. I don’t know why pastors seem so scared to go beyond basic, feelgood, superficial Christian doctrine, but I don’t think change is going to happen until we are all willing to get a little uncomfortable.
So to answer your original question, YES! I think you doing a weekly podcast/video would be a huge blessing!
Thanks for being so frank. I just get the sense that there’s a cohort in every church that’s taking matters into their own hands and feeding themselves. It bothers me, too.
I personally would love to see you on a WEEKLY basis bring to us a deeper word of God through video. I would love to see you work through your bible and bring to life all the various levels of cultures and worldviews which are working behind the scenes of every scripture.
There is so much religious confusion out here as well as religious pimpin going on (taking poor people’s money)that it’s hard to know if I’m doing the right things with my church or am I simply contributing to the problem that already exist. So, I’m ready to know the differences between the “business” of the church in contrast to its “calling”.
This would definitely be a supplement for me and would put some meat on my bones. This would be the perfect supplement for a starving Body of Christians.
Boy, isn’t that true (taking money and giving little or nothing in return). It’s like going into a restaurant and paying to not be fed.
Dr. Heiser,
Here’s a thought, don’t know if this would be something you’d consider. You had mentioned in 1 of your video teachings that every Christian should take a course or 2 in logic. Question, if the weekly teaching comes to fruition can/would you include some teaching in logic.
There are things like this out there. I should spend some time looking for some material to pass on.
John Robbins has a introduction in logic for free here.
http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?currpage=2&keyword=John_W%2E_Robbins&SpeakerOnly=true&currSection=sermonsspeaker&AudioOnly=false&sortby=added
He was a follower of Gordon Clark so his logic is solid, think he was also his son in law if i remember correctly, a short dose of Clarkian logic will have us defining terms and identifying copulas in no time.
Clark took it too far in his theology but his logic is cogent.
Count me in sensi
Interesting; I’ll give it a look/listen. I also found a blog series by Ken Samples (of Reasons to Believe) that seems easy to digest. I’ll blog these things shortly.
A weekly sermon would be awesome. I just recently discovered your work, and enjoy it very much. Would love to hear more.
Thanks; all this is helpful for thinking about this with more clarity.
As a pastor/teacher, I hear these comments so often I have lost count. “the same old thing” syndrome seems church wide.
Someone on one of your blog/discussions asked to be pointed towards help on an issue we were discussing. I became aware of feeling the need to point folks away from rather than towards resources for help.
I suppose this may be a situation brought about by the abundance of resource available and the reliance developed on these rather than the source (Scripture.)
It would seem a need is to engage the stuff the Bible is about rather than stuff about the Bible.
I think this goes to the heart of your teaching.
Keep going.
Yep; it wouldn’t be about “use this resource”. I understand your reaction, too, even though I’m sort of living at resource central. For most people the abundance is bewildering and overwhelming — where to start, what’s good and not-so-good, etc. It becomes distracting.
Bring it on Michael!!! I gave up Sunday school a long time, they have this little tiny magazine which they teach upon, and they talk and talk and I don’t hear anything about the real meat of what the word has to say, no supernatural, no Divine Council, no Nephilims among other things, so by all means if you’re really considering this, please do so, I can’t believe how the churches in general have managed to water down the bible so much, It’s frustrating!!
Teaching from a magazine? Man, that’s brutal.
1) Absolutely, I’d love to see regular video teaching posted here!
2) I am active in my local church, it would be supplemental for me.
Thanks!
I don’t go to church so yes please…to both.
Your assessment of what church has become is spot on. While I appreciate the fellowship it brings and the opportunity to hear God’s word, there exists a definite lack of depth and content. I believe the leadership and the congregation are both to blame for the degrading intellectual content coming from the pulpit. The leadership wants the sermons to be appealing to the broadest amount of people possible and the congregation (in general) either will not hold them accountable or lacks the desire to go to deeper. Most of what I have learned about the scripture has come from personal study outside the church and, while we have never met, I consider you one of my “spiritual” mentors and would greatly appreciate a weekly Bible Study if your time allowed it. Over the summer, my cousin and I used your videos as our weekly bible study. We went through quite a few hours over the course of a few months (including your 6 hour presentation on gnosticism). The need for in depth study of the scriptures from a trusted source is out there…
I’m again blessed by the tenacity of people to learn biblical content.
Yes and yes
I am sure that there are many of us that for one reason or another cannot make it to the “physical” church
And finding a group that makes right biblical sense is almost impossible. Questioning any “creed” means “excommunication”. Conform or you’re out. Technology today makes possible to reach many and fill the gap. Time is of the essence. We don’t know how much time is left before this door is shut down.
So please hurry
God bless
I hear that; thanks for the prodding!
BTW – this already is a community – proof is in the response
It most certainly meets the criteria of “two or three getting together…etc”
Just a different kind of connection (pun intended)
If this is of God, it will thrive – (Acts 5:38-39)
Logos did a survey, I think last year: in the comments I have suggested to have a “church” where Dr. Heiser was a teacher. Looks like I am getting my wish – only thing I will miss is singing hymns together-
Thank you
wow – didn’t know that, nor did I hear anything. What survey was it?
March 22, 2013
Canada User Survey
Hi Mike,
I’ve been reading and studying your materials for 4 or 5 years. I wholeheartedly agree with what everyone has posted. I think you should post something weekly. I know it would be a commitment on your part, but you will bless so many people. I tell everyone that ask me certain deep questions about the Bible to visit your site and to grasp the idea about the Divine Council, etc. I know it must be a little hard for you to imagine this, but there are a lot of us out here in, shall I say, “Internet Land” who read your stuff all the time. I have almost all your books and have read them at least twice. I mark the pages, underline and write notes in the books. Then I share this info with others. Plus, your books are at the top of my wish list. Ha!
I was raised Roman Catholic. I went to Catholic school for 6 years. At the age of 16 I joined a cult. Was in it for 22 years, then left. (You can email me personally, & I will fill you in on the details, if you want). I studied & memorized a very large portion of the KJV Bible. At one time I could quote you whole books. I thought I knew it well. But your teaching has opened my eyes to a whole new dimension of Bible Study.
I don’t go to church, as they are as you say, shallow and not too deep. I want the truth and the deep stuff. But I don’t disagree with fellowshipping with other believers of like mind.
That is why your web site is at the top of “My Favorites” and I’m sure at the top of many peoples favorites.
So, Yes to question one, and Yes to the second question, but it would be both a supplement and substitute for church, at least for me.
Thanks for the personal details. It’s a blessing to me to hear that what I do is useful. The response to this post has been amazing.
Please post as much content as you have time for. I know there are many, myself included that would benefit greatly from anything that you have to offer.
Thanks for being a thinker Mr. Heiser! You always challenge people to think and the Christian community needs that.
Thanks; some ideas are taking shape in the wake of all these comments.
Dr. Heiser,
1) My family would greatly appreciate it if you would. Sound teaching is greatly lacking in our area as too many have become “seeker friendly” and offer but a tiny drop of milk each Sunday as they follow Warren, Osteen, etc. Those that aren’t following these modern, popular teachers are either pretty much liturgical in nature or way off of the deep end with visiting “prophets” who are paid to come and give a “word” to anyone who wants one.
2. It would supplement the fellowship we have with our family and friends and the one Bible study we currently attend. We do not attend any local church due to the reasons mentioned above but would love to find one that just taught biblical truth.
Blessings to you and yours!
I hear you – hadn’t thought about the itinerant “prophets” thing; not part of my background. When I hear stuff Like this I wonder (anew) how the Church survives itself.
Dr. Heiser, what you have proposed would definitely be a blessing. I am one of the typical people who thought they were doing Bible study when in reality it was Bible reading. Reading your blog and watching your videos has given me the direction and guidance I needed to pursue real study. My eyes have been opened to so many things. Passages that did not make sense and that I could not get a cogent answer for before, now make sense. I appreciate the time and effort you put into this site.
thank you,
Nancy K.
Thanks for this. The Bible reading / study dichotomy is something that I’ve really seen since working at Logos — we have to think about where customers are at with respect to tools and resources. The distinction just wasn’t on my radar after 15 yrs of grad school, but I see it all the time now.
Awesome and yes!!
Let us know how we can help you achieve these goals/ideas. You are always a BLESSING!.
stay tuned! thanks.
It would be such a blessing, Mike! I think I’ve already exhausted every YouTube sermon of yours! I get great substance from my church, but your potential thoughts would provide a great supplement for our curiosities.
Yes and yes, Mike.
My only concern is where you will find the time to write Facade 3, run Memra and have time for your wife and family outside your Logos day job. 🙂
it will always be a juggling act, no matter what!
I don’t know if it’s possible, but having a web chat linked from your site would be awesome. It would be great to be able to chat with other people who are learning about everything available on your website. I’ve had very weird supernatural things happen to me lately and in the past, a web chat would be a great place to discuss these things.
Thinking about some of the video chat technology (e.g., the “go to meeting” variety).
1. If I posted video sermons / biblical content (by me) on a weekly basis would that be something you think I should be doing?
Well, I certainly don’t want to tell you what you “should” do. Would I enjoy it if you did and be a dedicated, weekly subscriber? Absolutely yes!
2. Although such a thing wouldn’t properly be a substitute for church (e.g., no community, at least ostensibly), would it be more of a supplement or substitute for you / others?
For quite awhile, I haven’t attended church regularly. Basically, for about the last 10 years or so, all of my Bible study and Christian community has occurred on the internet.
In summary, I agree and share sentiment with the commenter who exclaimed, “I think I’ve already exhausted every YouTube sermon of yours!”
Believe it or not, a year or two ago, when I first found you on YouTube, I watched the entire 6 hours on Gnosticism and The DaVinci Code twice in one day!
Anyways, as I’ve told you before, I’ve been through everything I could find from you, including:
-your Myth draft
-video and audio lectures and interviews on YouTube
-video and audio on http://www.gracebellingham.org/
-I Dare You, The Facade, and The Portent on Amazon.com
-DVD and CD sets on http://rcm-usa.org/
-all of your NakedBible podcasts
-many of the blog posts and articles on your panoply of amazing websites (at least the ones I can understand: I don’t know any Greek or Hebrew, and even though I have a BA in English, my understanding of grammatical terms is quite limited.)
Right now, I’m going through your CV looking for articles to tide me over until the winter or spring and you new nonfiction.
Thanks for everything!
wow – amazing.
Chris, have you read Mike’s dissertation?
That will give you plenty of meat especially the Bibliography.
Hi Dr. Heiser. My short answer is yes I’d love to see more resources from you!
I’m a pastor and constantly struggle to get folks to THINK about the Scriptures. After a particular sermon, a little old lady said to me well what I understood I liked. I don’t know if it was a complement or a criticism.
There are definitely those in the pews who want more but in my experience there are far more who want baby food.
I’ve even had people leave our church because I wasn’t the answer man they were looking for and encouraged wrestling with the text rather then quick fix answers or legalistic rules.
I’d love some reflection from you on how your church is addressing the dumbing down of not just the church but popular American culture as a whole.
Thanks!
Loved the little old lady quote! I don’t doubt that there are many who *want* milk / pablum / baby food. This is why, many years ago, I concluded I couldn’t be a pastor. I remember thinking I’d get thrown out of my church. I’d tell people that if they were going to attend my church, they’d have to develop a tolerance for content, or they need to go somewhere else. I’d be targeting the people who want to learn. I understand that people need community and many often come for only that, but my job is content. The rest of the church can provide the community. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask for 30 minutes of enduring content per week to complement the community. If you can’t handle that much, go somewhere where content isn’t a problem.
You’re correct about the wider culture. For all the jabber about the information age, massive numbers of people are passive consumers of drivel (reality TV, celebrity gossip overload, personal gossip overload [e.g., Facebook], etc.). Huge numbers are amusing themselves to death.
There are two groups in all that: (1) the passive, low-information, intellectually lazy; and (2) the people who know they’re missing something and want to learn. But I still think there is a significant third category — in churches and the wider culture: people who would respond if challenged to think — if they were jarred to the realization that there’s more to what they’ve been experiencing and it’s worth investigation. They won’t be jarred and awakened by surrendering / abandoning the mechanism that can potentially awaken them — stimulating content. The solution is not to eliminate the potential catalyst. That just grows Group 1.
This is why I wanted to start the business I was looking at, because like you I don’t want to deal with people that like to “sit in pews”.
On the side I’ve been teaching Muay Thai and combat sports for over fifteen years, so I thought I would go ahead and open my own gym with a coffee house connected to it and teach all biblical lessons out of the coffee house, that way it would be self sustaining and I wouldn’t have to rely on tithes and such.
It’s a work in progress.
Agreed – very good idea to not depend on tithes. The tent-maker model is the consistent NT model. (The context for taking up offerings in Acts and the epistles is to give the money to the Jerusalem church which was notoriously poor due to ostracism and persecution). That’s the easy part.
This reply pushed a button, so I’ll share some things I think about. If I were starting a church today, it would be with your model, supporting myself with a job and dispensing money collected to those in need (and of course paying the bills for any meeting place). It would be positively liberating. Unlike a traditional pastoring model, my income wouldn’t be in the hands of an elder board or something like that, who can get annoyed at the dumbest things and who are often unteachable (a particular problem in my case, since I’d know a lot more about the thing they say they want preached — the Bible — than they do). And with the sort of stuff I’d say, I’d have to be self-employed.
But it’s also true that, in my particular situation, this model seemingly fails (outside starting a church, which I have no intention of doing for other reasons). The only way I could “do what I do” FT would be (1) to have people fund me, or (2) sell things to support what I do. I favor the former in this case because I have this weird pipe dream of being able to give my content away — never charging for it. Right now, a lot that I do is free, but not all. I make enough online to stay online. My real job takes care of everything else. But someday I’d like everything to be free. I have this suspicion that the American church will eventually have to move underground (Portent readers get a little glimpse of this, though in a different way). I think seminary as we know it will die out or be forced to look like the military chaplaincy — shackled by ecumenism and political correctness, under threat of censorship and removal. (Bless all of you who are chaplains and manage to speak the truth; I couldn’t do what you do). I’d like to produce a complete biblical-theological education (including language training and tools-based language skills) that could be put on a flash drive and just given away / passed around to those who need training. To do that I’d need to be working at it FT. But I have a personality problem here (not to mention that I have no mechanism to do what I just described). My problem is that I’m just not wired to “take” money (I think it’s a PA Dutch thing). It’s a value exchange I struggle with. I have no doubt I’d produce (and so people who contribute would be happy), since I like doing everything I do (I can’t call anything I do “work” in a negative sense). So I constantly have this “selling and independence” vs. “taking money and giving everything away” conflict in me. Selling means independence, which I like, but selling means stuff isn’t free (how’s that for compelling logic). But it’s hard to argue with people who tell me that they’d rather give their money to me than Joel Osteen. (Yes, I’ve had people say that and similar things, with equally well-known names).
This conversation is part of that conflict. But I know I can do *something* functioning as I currently do. What that looks like is what I’m trying to sort out.
MSH said…
“I have this suspicion that the American church will eventually have to move underground ”
And I thought I was alone.
nope
Take a look at NTRF.org. Been working with them for years on everything in this model you’re describing.
never heard of it – looks very interesting. Can you (here or in email) describe your personal interaction with the site and how that’s looked (“outcomes”)?
I appreciated your “sit in the pew” quote Aaron. I’ve been that kind of person most of my life. Even identified myself as such with my first comment in this thread. With help from Dr. Heiser’s teachings and actually doing something instead of just sitting has been rewarding.
Thanks for the reminder that faith acts and should never just “sit”
I won’t lie Vincent, I grow weary of the traditional church, which my wife will attest to.
One of the few on radio that actually teach the Bible is Alistair Begg, I’ll give it to him, he has made a living out of teaching the Bible, most don’t.
My primary motivator for building a business is self sufficiency, and believe it or not it came from Zen monks.
Religion was used against me when I was young, so I turned to researching other religions, deeper science, etc.
One of the main differences of the Zen monks as opposed to the traditional Buddhist ones was that they demanded that they not be a parasite to the people, so that they would be a help, not a hindrance.
I think that lesson has always been in the back of my mind.
If we are to be out here helping the poor then how can a church depend on tithes? Seems counter productive.
Anyway, my two cents.
Dear Mike,
That would be a treat!
I left my church years ago and the only thing I miss is singing in a group (so I don’t hear myself)!
To answer your questions:
1. Yes, you should do it if you have time to do it and if you would enjoy it. Personally, I would appreciate more a ‘lesson’ style teaching than a ‘sermon’.
2. To me it would be a great supplement to my own reading and studies. Substitute …. well, I read and enjoyed a lot of material you have recommended and I consider it a substitute…
Thank you, Mike!
glad you mentioned the “lesson” thing (vs. sermon). That’s come up in some emails with some good reasoning behind it.
People/we need what you are offering and I thank you for posing a question which I believe you already knew the answer to; who would decline such an offer on this blog? I thank you for suggesting the undertaking and I also present you with a resounding “YES” as have all others here.
In addition to our own personal Divine inspiration(s), we need a reliable and consistent source of logic and reason as it pertains to the proper study of scripture. For me, you are among the top of a short list in that regard.
The modern day “CHURCH” has not only mostly degraded to “feel good” sermons but is also falling prey to the new-yet-old oneness/esoterism defined as new-agism. The subtlety of this brand of theology is its most dangerous aspect and we, as true followers of Christ, need to be fully armed with sound truth and logic when we encounter such ideas. It’s not only “milk”, it’s also “sour milk” being served.
Science, logic and reason are NOT diametrically opposed to Biblical truth; we just require the proper tools and skills to articulate in a manner that is not only palpable but sound.
This is what you provide and what we need to “take and run with” in order to wake others from their possible unwitting slumber.
Thanks again.
I would expect enthusiasm, but I’m looking for insightful thoughts. But I have to admit the response has been well beyond what I expected. See my latest reply back to Aaron for more. I described the conflict a bit.
It seems to me that God has given you the answer you were looking for. If it is something that He has ordained than there will be no conflict. Sometimes you just have to trust and start and let Him fill in the blanks.
Proverbs 3,verses 5 and 6.
I’m getting that impression, too. Starting to plot out some strategies on this end (what to do and how not to fail at it). Stay tuned.
This has become my go-to place for Bible teaching and learning. Its not that the sermons in my Church are bad but they only scratch the surface of things. I’ve shared your video lectures and the response is usually “is there more?”. If you made more of them it would certainly be a tremendous help.
good; stay tuned!
please do this, Mike. This would be great.
Thanks! Stay tuned.
I would love an on-line weekly bible teaching post from MSH. Please do it. YES!
Thanks! Stay tuned.
Yes! This would be the next best thing to the in-person total immersion boot camp I had hoped you would open 🙂
SIGN ME UP!!
Some of the best lines come in these comments – “total immersion boot camp”!
Would that be like a HeiserSpace Cafe ?
😉
LOL – nice job there!
Thought:
Why don’t you start a member based community with a subscription fee.
I know I’d pay a couple of dollars a month to it!
You could use something like Ning (http://www.ning.com/) to build it on.
I know you want to do things for free, however charging a nominal fee I don’t think would be a bad thing, at least you could recover your costs.
I’ll check out the website. Other ideas (like a 501c3) have also surfaced. I’m looking at all of them.
I would highly recommend http://www.charitynetusa.com
they real helped us with our 501c3.
we tried to do it ourselves, it’s a pain.
so I’ve heard; thanks!
I would strongly suggest looking at the restrictions a 501c3 places on what you can say. From what I understand it would restrict your ability to comment on any political issues.
1. I don’t know if it’s something you “should be doing”, but I wish you would.
2. It would be a supplement for me, but I imagine the sermons at our (Anglican) church would soon be seen as the supplemental teaching, as they’re so insipid.
thanks for the candor; stay tuned.
Yes. My husband and I would love a weekly teaching video/sermon from you. The sooner the better.
thanks; stay tuned!
I’d love it
thanks; stay tuned for details.
thank you; stay tuned for details.
Local meetups would be good if enough people resided in a region.
hadn’t thought of that; thanks!
Oooo. Yes, please: we’d host one! 🙂
host? explain, please.
I understood “local meetups … in a region” to mean study/discussion groups held in homes, pubs, Starbucks etc. But maybe it’s actually an online thing.
First off – first time commenting here as this is the one topic I felt I had too. Been following your information for a little bit now. I am actually in your Memra hebrew presently.
Where it comes to community this is a hard thing to grasp. It is very difficult for an online community to provide this in a true format as it is voluntary. Often a true reflection of Christ’s church must provide accountability and that is not easily replicated in any major online format. At least with present technology.
That being said your teaching is radical that it challenges thinking and helps us redefine the box so to speak. This has been an immense help to me as a Sunday school teacher and bible study leader in my community church. Granted I have to be careful how much I unleash at a time.
Coming from a full gospel – charismatic background we tend to be inundated with emotion, experience and interaction. This spiritual meat feast has been very critical to my current development and I would be worse off had I not encountered your teachings.
I would not cease my current church but would welcome any and all additional interaction you would have with “us”. As long as it would not overburden you, I would wholeheartedly appreciate your efforts and would have you know it would be used not just for myself but to enrich my local community of believers here as well.
Blessings to your endeavors.
Brian
good stuff; very thoughtful – thanks!
Dr. Heiser,
I’m currently a student of your online Memra Institute taking your Hebrew and Greek classes (which are a genuine blessing – thank you!)
But I also listen to teachings that you share when I can, and they are very informal. I saw a video of your in-depth breakdown of the nachash and you had mentioned you have other teachings concerning Biblical Cosmology. (I also saw the same school logo in the video as the language classes I’m taking through your online site.
Do you offer in-depth classes concerning the Genesis Cosmology (or anything else that isn’t freely found in a video search) they can be purchased?
Again, thank you for all you do.
Sincerely,
Anthony
I used to; haven’t done that in several years, though.
Hi Mike,
I’m irritated to hear that “…people (Christians) ask me why I wasted my life pursuing biblical studies…” (Mind you, I’m irritated at “their” stupidity.) I thank God for people like you because I get to glean from what you’ve learned. I only wish I had the intelligence you have and believed in myself when I was at an age to pursue the studies you’ve pursued. I’m almost a senior citizen now and only look back with regret that I didn’t follow the bent that God gave me.
As for the Memra Institute, that sounds like something I’d like to pursue and maybe able to follow. How does one sign up for such classes?
In fact, anything you write or teach I’m interested in acquiring. I’m starving for biblically sound, intellectual teaching. So, please, PLEASE consider presenting us with more substantial teachings. I am starved for a hearty roast beef teaching from the Scriptures.
God bless you,
Laura
Thanks, Laura – just go to http://www.memraonline.com and click on “Registration” for information.
My teenage sons and I would be interested in any video archive that might come of this. We probably would not be involved in a chat/forum community. My son said we would be Watchers, lol. Video format is very helpful for visual learners like us, so I do hope you don’t go the mp3 route if this ever happens. 🙂 And, no, this would not replace church attendance because we don’t attend church for meaningful Bible study.
had to laugh at the Watchers comment! I’ll be making an announcement about this in a week or so.
This is an old post, but I wanted to chime in anyway:
I completely agree with all of the reasoning you provide above. I happen to attend a solid church with excellent teaching that is better than anything I’ve heard anywhere elsewhere in church, but even so the stuff you talk about is just not discussed even in churches with deeper teaching. It’s just in another league. I also think that there are some pastors out there who would like to have someone to listen to or watch that can inspire and uplift their own understanding to higher levels. This influence needs to be increased.
Greg really makes an effort there.
I don’t know how I stumbled into this older discussion, but I will take it as an opportunity to ENCOURAGE YOU! I am only partway through the naked bible podcasts (#62!) but I am really enjoying this resource and learning a lot. I live in a small town with small congregations, so your work is a blessing. PLEASE CONTINUE..!!!
great – thanks for listening!
Dr. Heiser – First time poster here, I had the opportunity to hear you speak in Rochester, NY and thoroughly enjoyed it. To give my 2 cents on this topic, I find myself in the situation that you describe above. I appreciate the material that you have been posting as you walk your way through books of the bible. The challenge that I face is finding resources that are written to the “informed laity” audience. I enjoy reading academic level resources, however, not being a full time scholar, I struggle to navigate the lay of the land. I don’t have the time or access to survey all of the resources on a given topic – so I’m worried that the few I am able to find are not giving me a balanced survey. The biggest obstacle that I face is when a resource delves too deeply into original language without transliteration of hebrew/greek into English. For someone with no training in this area, the transliteration piece makes all the difference in the world for being able to follow a train of logic.
Anyways, thanks for what you are doing 🙂
Understood; while this problem does limit you in terms of resources, at least you’re not entirely cut off.
Yes, please! Your voice is a refreshing spring in a dry land. I want to say also that I thoroughly enjoyed The Facade and The Portent, as well as The Unseen Realm. Keep up the great work!
thanks!
i encourage you to share your sand box, i live in southern Idaho and have not yet have found a church of substance.
Understood.
re: Naked Bible Podcasts 175 and 176: John starts with “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were
made; without him nothing was made that has been made. …” I hear you making exotic arguments about how the Son, Jesus, was the only high, exalted son of God. It occurs to me that Jesus was the only manifestation of God who became human. Has no-one considered that Jesus was “begotten” into humankind, and the first MANIFESTATION of God as man. The terms “You are my Son and I shall be to you as a Father’ was an explanation for humankind to understand the relationship between Jesus and God the Father, when in fact they are one in the same. A long way to say “begotten” means only that Jesus was the ONLY human manifestation of God. Seems a simpler way to understand all the rhetoric. No?
This turned out very well. I love the content. It really grounds me. I just cannot get into the wackier stuff in Christian Middle earth. I gave up a lot of that years ago (e.g. when I learned something about textual criticism I had to immediately give up the hocus pocus of Bible codes).
Thanks again, Dr. Heiser!