Hat tip to Prof. James McGrath for this.
Jesus mythicism, for the uninitiated, is the belief that Jesus never existed — that he is an imaginary creation derived from a handful of ancient Near Eastern and Mediterranean mythological figures. This post by R. Joseph Hoffman, a New Testament scholar who is no “right wing fundamentalist” for sure, contains a number of insightful observations. Here are two:
It is false to say however that the argument for Jesus’ historicity is merely circumstantial. For an argument to be circumstantial there would need to be a lack of direct evidence of an event; conclusions would be drawn entirely from the coincidence of effects and prior events.
The evidence for Jesus is much stronger than that, in spite of its deficiencies. Moreover, it has context, conditions and coordinates as defining parameters, so if Jesus typifies or meets certain criteria in these domains, the probability of his being a real person and not a cipher are greatly increased. I am startled by comparisons to Superman, Hercules, Santa Claus, and a dozen other gods and heroes, precisely because these figures fall outside the category of the typical. It is not just that their stories are incredible but that they are incredible in a way designed to emphasize their departure from an historical norm. The New Testament serves a different purpose.
So, in a nutshell, the artifacts we possess, whatever their limitations as “evidence” are not circumstantial evidence but the sort of evidence many historians would like to have in the case of other well-known figures like Pythagoras and Apollonius of Tyana.
And …
I am still waiting for some proof from the mythtics that the story is concocted, either out of thin air or as an amalgam of competing myths, not many of which look very much like the Jesus story at all. As comparative religionist Jonathan Z. Smith has noted concerning the “prevalence” of the dying and rising god myth, it isn’t prevalent at all; it’s “largely a misnomer based on imaginative reconstructions and exceedingly late or highly ambiguous texts.” So out of fashion is the category that modern classicists, religionists, and historians avoid it altogether, and it survives largely in the imagination of amateurs whose views are formed by outdated nineteenth century speculations. Gregory Boyd puts it succinctly when he comments that often there is either no death, no resurrection or no god in the examples used to construct each of the examples in the category, making the whole exercise a bad case of what Gerald O’Collins has called “parallelomania.” The mere compilation of analogies has always been the quicksand into which mythicism disappears. It is their attempt to prove–entirely circumstantially–that if something besides Jesus was there to be used it was used. One dying and rising god is like every other rising god. One salvation story fragments into a dozen salvation stories, one of which is the gospel.
The problem with this line of thinking, as I suggested in a post yesterday, is that simple logic and parsimony require us to use what we know before we resort to what might have been. When there is a known figure who typifies his era, preaches things typical of his time and place, and lives and dies in a context plausible for the time, what possible reason would there be –apart from pure malice–to introduce a completely foreign explanation–a Hercules or Dionysus–into the mix. Closer to home, as we know more about Jesus than we do about Theudas or Judas the Galilean, what reason do we give for preferring other identities and activity to the activity described of Jesus. Increasingly the far reaches of mythicism begin to sound more like the wingnut birtherism that declared Barack Obama was born in Kenya and the report of his birth called into a Honolulu newspaper in prescient anticipation that one day he would need the right stuff to be president.
Best line: “As a group, the mythicists have proven themselves happier in the echo chamber of their own beliefs than in a world where a real interchange of ideas can happen.”
Yep. That’s mythicism in a nutshell.
Thanks to you Mike for bringing this subject up.
There is no doubt that Jesus was real. I can provide all primary sources for ‘His existence. The truth is ; there are no sound and logical theories against Jesus’ existence , and IMO, no actual (primary sourced) information that refutes ‘not only his existence, but also his divinity.
I have become addicted to Will Durant audio books.
In the Cesar and Christ volumes, There are lots of citations. Durant IMO was very far from christian, yet in his writings not only confirmed Jesus’ existence he also,confirms the argument of Jesus’ divinity/God incarnate/Messiah,… etc.
“it survives largely in the imagination of amateurs whose views are formed by outdated nineteenth century speculations”
This quote…
I am reminded of your illustration recently regarding the three concentric circles or layers of people involved with Christianity. The most outer layer being normal Christians and most preachers. The next layer or circle inwards are those whom the previous group sees as “academic” yet has nothing published or peer-reviewed. While they very well may be intelligent, their standards and practices of study are dubious at best. Self preservation comes to mind in the position they hold within the church as viewed by those in the most outer layer. Of course the most centered circle or layer are the academics like yourself.
This quote quietly and intuitively identifies a big problem that could be dealt with to some degree if more scholar types purposely made it a point to interact and inform the outermost group of people regarding the issues of the day. If nothing else, it would reduce the number of the middle group and help the rest identify their calling.
All this to say thanks for doing what you do by pointing out the things that are important to know.
Bravo!
True; a good reminder of why more academics should get off their high horses and be involved.
An atheist friend of mine is a devotee of Richard Dawkins, et al. And he buys into the odd idea that the Flavian family invented Jesus to bolster their claims to the Imperial purple. I ran across a lengthy treatment of this idea a few years back and may have it printed out. My friend firmly believes in this nonsense, so thanks for this post.
You’re welcome.
I think I must be the only one who finds reliance on the word “circumstantial” to be rather disturbing. First of all, let’s be honest about it: The word essentially doesn’t mean anything. I don’t care who says it or in what context it’s used, it’s just a disparaging weasel-word that tells me nothing about the “evidence” which is labeled “circumstantial” or not, and all about the person who used it.
When it comes to mythicists, they use it to dismiss things, which is a rather obvious application of the word. But they’re not the only ones who take advantage of it. Historicists use it in a kind of contrary way: They’ll say some mythicist has called something “circumstantial” to dismiss it; come up with some way to make it seem compelling; decide that it can’t be “circumstantial” after all; then use this conclusion to claim they’ve “proven” Jesus must have existed.
Such is just one of the games people play in order to “prove” whatever belief they’ve already decided must be true before they’ve even looked at whatever evidence there is to examine.
I think you’re over-reading the term. Most of the time, it points to the coherence of the general thesis (and coherence and factuality are not considered complete synonyms, but neither are they considered oppositional). That isn’t something that can be said of something literally made up out of whole cloth, or organized badly (i.e., incoherently, with disconnects ignored) out of pre-existing ideas/texts, as the mythicist approach requires.
You’re right, maybe I’m making too much of just one word. It’s just that the word “circumstantial” tends to flick the needle of my personal B.S. meter up a bit, every time I see it.
I understand these statements about Jesus mythicism. Do you have an opinion about other forms of mythicism? I understand Volker Popp and others have some convincing arguments about a pre-Arabic Koran.
I’d have to know more about what Propp says. To my ear, “pre-Arabic Koran” means “Yeah, since so much of the Koran is copied from the OT and NT” – but I know that’s not what’s meant.
” pre arabic” meaning what?
If this is a reference to the language, then it’s a bit more comprehensible (i.e., content now in the Arabic Koran that appears in older South Semitic languages / literature). But that’s my guess at his use of the phrase.
I’m curious…why do you refer to Hoffman as “disinterested” when he refers to himself as a “humanist?” I wonder if such language reinforces a false view that sees skepticism as a form of “objectivity” whereas commitment to the central truths of the New Testament perspective about Jesus is something less than rational scholarship.
Because that’s the way he characterized himself in the piece.
How, could a humanist be objective ?
objective (in a broad sense) = looking to base beliefs/claims in points of factual reality and/or logical coherence.
Speaking of Jesus, what do you think of this idea I came across the other day– that the birth/conception story of Jesus is a dual-conception, natural/supernatural story? I read about this the other day here: http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/bible-interpretation/who-was-jesus-biological-father/.
It’s being argued that this dual-conception idea is consistent with the Greco-Roman biographical literature of the day, and also that our notions of Jesus being “fully human” (despite not having a human-supplied Y chromosome) don’t take into account ancient views of conception biology.
Would be interested in your thoughts, or maybe some direction on where to read more about the genre issue in regards to the dual conception idea.
I’d have to read the article to know precisely what claims are being made. All I can say here is that it seems a little odd to have Aristotle serve as the hermeneutical guide to a Semitic text. While this is possible, given the context of Hellenistic Judaism, it sort of presumes that the biblical writers were hellenists and that they were thinking along hellenistic terms (as opposed to something more Semitic). In other words, would a theologically conservative Jew have thought a hellenistic approach satisfied Jewish expectations of the messianic profile? Is a different approach that isn’t Aristotelian in view? I’ll give it a read; looks interesting.
,Cant quite grasp that idea. Hellenistic means Greek thinking. It is an exclusive term referring to an exclusive time.
Looked at small amount of article, seems to infer Greeks knew about X and Y chromosomes and that Jesus was some how tested for these at the time. quite strange IMO.
You’re misreading the article. They didn’t know about chromosomes, and Jesus never underwent a DNA test.
I think there is more to the “dying and rising god” theory than meets the eye. Jonathan Z. Smith wants to write it off entirely, but Tryggve N. D. Mettinger concludes that “the riddle still remains.”
Here are some of my conclusions after digging into the subject for a number of years:
http://www.redmoonrising.com/osiris.htm
Hi Peter! And Mark Smith (among others) would point out that gods never really die, even when they are killed off (Ugaritic examples is what he has in mind, specifically). And yet the incarnation requires a real death (you can’t have a real bodily resurrection without a real incarnate death).
If you try to think of an original color, or an original animal, or anything else original for that matter, you’ll find it difficult to impossible. All you can really do is envision something different, but made up of something else that has already existed.
If this is true, then the Darwinist has to explain how someone from the ancient world birthed the concept of invisible gods, or God, and the mountain of detailed fable that surrounds each culture’s belief in such.
And even though it is reasonable and understandable that the Jesus figure and his parables were simply constructs from an earlier set of figures and tales, whether real or imagined even then, well there must be an original reality. I personally believe that reality is the gospel which was written in the stars–the mazzaroth, which began the legends for many ancient cultures.
But even if that is not true at all, the Mythicist still has a problem. They may dismiss the gospel accounts as plagiarism, but what do they do with Paul, Peter, and John? If one looks at the complex and detailed theology as outlined in, say, Romans, for example, one runs into that problem of creating from nothing, since apparently none of it is true–extremely difficult to do. I can’t even think of a new color.
yep; another illustration of another problem for the coherence of their approach.
Well nothing new can be thought of, without new new ways of thinking.
a corollary: nothing new and credible will be thought of with poor but new ways of thinking.
Tom Holland, the British historian, has done some excellent research on the origins of Islam. That’s a very, very, murky story compared with the NT accounts. He gave an interview recently on the podcast “The History of Byzantium.”
Thanks!