Years ago I wrote a series of posts under the title “Why an Obsession with Eschatology is a Waste of Time.” One of the fundamental goals of that series was to debunk the notion, held by countless Christians of all eschatological persuasions, that whatever view they held about end times was not self-evident from the Bible. In other words, no view comes to light just by observing “what the Bible says.” Frankly, what the Bible says about end times is cryptic — deliberately so. The series gave a number of examples where “literalism” is simplistic, as the way the New Testament writers utilize and interpret the Old Testament does not conform to simple 1:1 correspondence literalism. Noting that a “plan, literal” reading of Daniel’s seventy weeks could actually go in more than one direction was a small part of that series.
A recent article in the Journal for the Evangelical Study of the Old Testament well illustrates the problem with a “literal” chronological understanding of the seventy weeks:
“The ‘Seventy Sevens’ (Daniel 9:24) in Light of Heptadic Themes in Qumran” by Ron Haydon
The author tries to (hold on to your hat) understand the seventy sevens in light of the context of the ancient Jewish sect from Qumran. Here’s the abstract:
ABSTRACT: Daniel 9:24 is fraught with puzzling language, particularly the meaning of the “seventy sevens.” Rather than add to the relevant commentaries, this paper approaches the phrase in light of the heptadic language we find in select Qumran sources. Jubilees, 1 Enoch, and related scrolls portray these heptadic structures as primarily theological expressions, with chronology either set in the background or absent altogether. I suggest this context casts the seventy sevens in a new light, wherein it serves a mainly theological function instead of a rigid temporal one. Beginning with a brief examination of each major extracanonical source, we will consider two theological implications that come as a result of these texts’ reception of Daniel: first, Daniel’s seventy sevens may need to be considered a theological image; second, the image likely paints a picture of exile and restoration in its fullness, spanning all epochs, not just the Babylonian, Media-Persian, and Seleucid-Hasmonean crises. The conclusion notes how such literary and theological moves may also point to a deliberate shape inherent to Dan 9, one that includes subsequent, interpretive communities, such as Qumran and its sects.
My point in blogging this article is not to endorse its conclusion or any other conclusion. Rather, it is to point out that (a) this is what we should be doing — trying to understand Scripture in ways the original or near-original readers would have parsed things due to their own cognitive framework, and (b) readings other than the simplistic chronological approach are not only possible, but would have been familiar to ancient readers.
In short, eschatology is much more complicated than popular Bible teachers tell you.
Unrelated, but, I thought this might be of interest to you:
http://mosaicmagazine.com/essay/2015/03/was-there-an-exodus/
I think the author is right when he calls the seventy sevens a time image. The first problem is that some interpreters may isolate ch 9 from the other visions in Daniel and associate only with Jeremiah 25:11. Gabriel comes to interpret the “vision.” Gabriel is only mentioned elsewhere in chapter 8 of Daniel, and Jeremiah never actually saw visions but received a “word” from God. Daniel was confused at the end of 8, and so it seems obvious that the 9:24-27 must be closely compared to chapter 8.
Perhaps the explanation should be understood chiastically.
A. finish the transgression,
B. and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity,
C.and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy
C. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
B. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
A. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
A. 8:7-12
B. 8:13
C. 8:14
A. 8:19-8:25
B. 8:26
C. … Ch. 9
As far as the time image is concerned, Hesiod’s ages of man is very similar to Dan 2 and I think there are similarities to Daniel found in Zorastrianism and even ancient Sumeria as well. Eusebius makes some interesting remarks about Daniel 2 and 7.
“For it was quite consistent in the king, whose view of the spectacle of life was so false, and who admired the beauty of the mere sensible colours, so to speak, in the picture set up to view, **to liken the life of all men to a great image; but (it became) the prophet to compare the great and mighty tumult of life to a mighty sea.** And it was fitting that the king, who prized the substances deemed precious among men, gold, and silver, and brass, and iron, should liken to these substances the kingdoms that held the sovereignty at different times in the life of men; but that the prophet should describe these same kingdoms under the likeness of beasts, in accordance with the manner of their rule…
…And I think that the visions shown, both to the king and to the prophet, were visions of these four kingdoms alone, and of none others, because by these the nation of the Jews was held in bondage from the times of the prophet.” (Scholia on Daniel)”
Eusebius seems to see chapter 2 and 7 as a likeness of the “life of all men.” The history of Israel follows that same pattern. A time image?
I know your position on this issue and certainly respect it, but, since you brought it up I would just like to humbly point your attention to a paper that I published (under the radar) on this subject matter back in 2013 in the Journal of Dispensational Theology.
My paper comes from a purely dispensational point of view where I hope that I successfully corrected a glaring mathematical error in the works of Harold Hoehner that seems to me to have been almost deliberately overlooked by the many evangelicals who reference this view without fully investigating it.
The paper is available for free online at and starts on page 113 of the following journal issue: http://tyndale.edu/wp-content/uploads/JODT-Vol17-No51-Summer-Fall13.pdf
Sorry, meant to write page 119, that was a typo
You actually don’t know my position on this. I’ve never stated it (other than “I don’t care what position people take so long as they don’t pretend their view is self evident”).
I’ll give your article a look!
Hi Christopher,
Have you considered Gentry’s paper?
http://www.sbts.edu/resources/files/2010/05/sbjt_v14_n1_gentry.pdf
I looked at your bibliography and it’s not included (and it’s a 2010 paper). He doesnt agree with the 444 BC date (Artaxerxes‘s Commission to Nehemiah) but goes with 457 BC ( Artaxerxes’s Commission to Ezra — which comes close to the alternative of the 444 BC date your present). He also persuasively demonstrates that Dan. Chaps 8 / 10-12 should not be mingled with Chap 9. Read his paper to see why. Also, that there is no anti-christ in this chapter (unlike Chaps. 8 / 10-12). I’ve read Tanner and Leslie McFall, the papers Mike shared here in the past. I also had already looked at R. Anderson; but that doesnt work either. Also, you would do well to consider revising the birth of Christ and his death throughout peer-review and see if Daniel’s prophecy (Dan 9:24-27) matches the “coming prince” and his death in 1 century C.E. For that, you will need to consider Jesus’ most likely birth and death. For his birth, see Mike’s posts on the Start of Bethlehem / “The Star that Astonished the World” by Ernest L. Martin. For his death, I dont have the papers with me, their at home. There’s also the issue of Mark 13, Matthew 24 and Luke 21 (about the tribulation and the second coming). I conversed with Mark Goodacre, Mike Kok, and a bit of Larry Hurtado on these passages. I read critical commentaries and peer-reviewed articles. For now, it’s clear that Mark 13 demonstrates a clear contrast between the tribulation for Israel (which already past) and his second coming. Matthew and Luke somewhat blur these contrasts. Knowing that Mark is earlier than Matthew/Luke and that it was likely written before 70 C.E., and taking 1 Thess and 2 Thess into account; Peter Gentry’s viewpoint remains solid, and remains my preference (not conclusion, per se), in terms of Daniel 9 pointing to Jesus’ ministry and death in 1 century C.E. and the fact that the tribulation happened already in 1 century C.E. The second coming (which includes a snatching away) is yet to happen. So, Pre-Trib doesnt work. Im willing to study this further with you if you wish; Im not closed-minded :-O
Regarding Christ’s birth in 2 BC with respect to the Star of Bethlehem and how it relates well to his death in 33 AD (a date which has a lot of support from various sources), consider my presentation of this on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FP9M95ZH4Mk
In my paper I briefly mention all of the theories as to the terminus ad quem and ad quo of the 70 weeks, but my purpose wasn’t to review them all. Admittedly, they all have holes, there is no “smoking gun”.
Any opinion is probably just about as good as any other (which I think is Mike’s point)…though I still am sticking with my own current conclusions!! It’s my own “personal conviction”, as my fellow Southern Baptists like to say. Ha ha!
That is what I meant by your position – i.e., that you don’t take a side/don’t believe that there is enough evidence within the text itself to make any position significantly superior to any other. I do respect that “position” (if you will) and see where you are coming from on it.
got it; understood.
Too many academic scholars attempt categorize so much of scripture as ambiguous, but God wrote it for the believer. Today, God expects us to understand. He held the Jews accountable to know the day of the triumphal entry. So prophecy is relevant.
People just do not like it when teachers attempt to read and comprehend the scripture and then share there thoughts (hypotheses)/perspectives (theories). This is why there are so many differing perspectives.
Yet, this is how we learn! Science learns the same way.
You can bring the ancient setting and mind set, but the problem is that was the local scope of the passage. All scripture testifies of Jesus. This is another level of interpretation better understood by those who lived after Jesus’ first coming. Many Jews did not have this mindset of their scripture.
On the Emmaus Road Jesus taught from the Scriptures to his disciples (Jews) those things concerning the Messiah(thoughts/perspectives) not understood (by ancient Jews).
Everyone is minimizing the significance of literalness too nonchalantly. It is important.
And, as for my two cents, sin is not abolish until after Jesus’ millennial reign upon this Earth. Therefore, Daniel reaches further out than the Return of Christ.
Scripture is ambiguous in a number of passages. That’s just the way it is. Anyone who works in the text knows that and lives with it (and that doesn’t stop anyone from taking a position). If God wanted greater clarity he would have made sure that was achievable. He’s not obligated to spell out for us in great precision what he’s doing.
Totally agree that we need to let Scripture be ambiguous if that is what it wants to be. That is the way it was in the prophets – i.e., at the time that the prophets were active, the 2 comings of Christ were “hidden” from them, the Gentile-driven church was a “mystery” (see Eph 3:4-8; Col 1:25-27; Rom 16:25-26 – Paul repeated that 3 times, must be important), thus there was ambiguity there at the time of the revelation to those prophets that they just had to live with. Still, all of that was ultimately cleared up over time.
I think the same will be true with some of these prophecies about the end-time. We just won’t know it all until after we get there. We just have to be content with the rough outline right now. But, that doesn’t mean we cannot at least try to put some theories out there that can then be tested as time progresses. At some point clarity will come.
But, while clarity is lacking, we just have to be careful not to get in fights looking through this glass darkly. Maybe God is using this ambiguity to try to teach us something – patience, humility,…
Great comments, great points, Christopher.
I’ve read a lot and I believe this is the best explanation of Daniel’s 70 Weeks. It starts with the decree of Cyrus to rebuild the Temple and the City. When 7 Weeks passes (7×7=49 years), a Prince arrives, Nehemiah, who was a governor and Prince, and he helped get the project going again after setbacks. Then for 62 Weeks (62×7=434 years) it, the temple and city, will be built again but in troubled times (major empires, wars, and Herod’s addition). And after the 62 Weeks, with Jerusalem already surrounded by Roman armies, the anointing of the Temple, like the first, was cut off and subsequently destroyed. The people of the Prince to come will destroy it. The people of Titus, a Prince, destroyed the city. Titus wanted to keep the Temple around, but the people were in a trance and defied orders.
So now we have 49+434=483 years fulfilled; the final Seventh Week, Seven Years, to complete the total 70×7=490 Years, begins with a Mosaic covenant with the antichrist. There are too many prophecies and hidden and plain meanings in the Old and New Testament to ignore this 7 Year period. The Bible mainly focuses on the midpoint with the resurrection of the antichrist; and the abomination of himself declaring to be God and image of him; and the following great tribulation. The first 3 1/2 years are his warfare against Arab nations, animal sacrifices at the third temple, all trying to fulfill messianic prophecies which the Jews require.
The Mark of the Beast is Vav+Vav+Vav=18, Chai/Chay, which is masculine singular of beast Chayyah, and means alive/resurrection. He will have the reputation/name of being alive. The other major characteristic of the antichrist is his warfare during the first 3 1/2 years. When Jesus mentioned wars & rumors of wars, he was referring to this specific Messianic period.
I can’t help but think of this passage:
Matthew 18:22-23 – Then Peter came up and said to him, “Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?” Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you seven times, but seventy-seven times.”
This is when Jesus made it clear that after exactly 49 offenses, you were no longer obligated to forgive someone.
Okay I meant 77 times, but you get the idea…
not sure why Jesus would give a count (or why we’d consider this sort of rigid literalism to be a sound approach). This is a figure of speech known outside the NT.
At high risk of being battered senseless by those more educated than I, the 5th sentence of MSH’s opening [top] can be applied to any number of NT topics, beginning with cited OT Scriptures claimed as prophetic proof texts of Jesus’s identity. Indeed, OT citations attributed to Jesus Himself are likewise assailable by such litmus. It isn’t just eschatology that requires faith, trust, humility.
Looking for, anticipating, hastening, and praying for Christ’s parousia is, in effect, required of us by the apostolic witnesses and Jesus’s own directives. non-optional.
To be ignorant, arrogant, or slothful of what we CAN know is to set ourselves up for being swept away by the Great Delusion. To pan Twain – it ain’t the parts of Eschatology I don’t understand that disturb me.
Hi Mike,
I’ve just stumbled upon your website(s) today.
I’ve enjoyed what I’ve read of your work (and that of others) thus far on the “Divine Council”.
One comment on this particular post of yours on “eschatology”, which in turn relates back to your earlier multi-part post titled ‘Why an obsession with eschatology is a waste of time”.
Note that I see both part 2 and part 6 of your earlier multi-part post as being rendered invalid by the existence of Ezekiel 47:13-48:35. The fact that you failed to cite or consider Ezekiel 47:13-48:35 in your earlier part 2 (and part 6 especially) also struck me as uncharacteristically amateurish for you….
@Christopher — if you ever visit this thread again, consider this non-self-evident link:
http://www.amazon.com/Know-Therefore-Understand-Biblical-Explication/dp/0970433093
(If cost is an issue for you then just email me at TTSchlegel@gmail.com, as in such a case I’d be happy to buy a copy of the book for you myself and have it sent to you, noting that I have never received, nor will I ever receive, any profits from its sale).
What does the Ezekiel passage have to do with this?
If you’d like me to post any further comments by you, skip the condescension. I’m not impressed. But you get to put a link in the comments. A well-known marketing tactic.
I’m surprised that you asked the question. What does the Ezekiel passage NOT have to do with Israel being back in the land during the Millennium? (I’m assuming that you yourself construe Ezekiel’s prophecies to be legitimate — or is that actually not the case?). As to your other comment, I’m not here impress, condescend to, or market to anyone, unless one considers “marketing of the truth (or more precisely the honest search for truth) without any financial gain or even any possibility of hope for financial gain” as “marketing”. (P.S. To what extent does that description fit you?). As to your posting this comment or not, or to your posting or not posting any other comment I might eventually be led to make here, it’s your site, so do with my comments as you will. Proverbs 12:1 and 18:13.
BTW, the nice video of yours linked below likely provides the ad quem for the 69th week. And although my book leaves enough room for this date, it’s not specifically mentioned there only because this particular information was not available to me in 2005. But in any case my accepting your “indirect reproof” in this area hopefully provides you with one example of a self-application of Proverbs 12:1 🙂
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O44nNzRa81Q
I really don’t have a position on how the 70 weeks play out. I think there are 2-3 viable systems (if their point is plotting time).
THIS!
What Mike said.
Billy ball. Dr Heiser slides under the tag and trots contentedly to the dugout.
…just mis-searching the site after:
https://drmsh.com/2016/01/16/naked-bible-podcast-episode-83-leviticus-23-24-25/
Best.
I’m posting this, but I’ve lost the context for it and don’t care to look it up. I’m just not very interested in 70 weeks schemes or eschatology.
I have not read your spill. I was going to write what I have on weeks from a point of view beginning with the problm with the writer or writers of daniel. I decided not to do it.
Plotting time versus plotting weeks.
Here is my basic proposition.
There are 15 weeks.
There are seventy workers. (this falls in line with daniel 9 24 because it happens seventy times with each worker to include Jesus who works the passion week)
God has seven weeks and seven workers meaning God works one week. The Father works two weeks. The Son works two weeks. The Spirit works two weeks.
Israel has seven weeks and 62 workers. The first week is worked by Joseph, the eldest. The seventhy week is worked by Benjamin, the youngest. The middle five weeks are worked by the 12 brothers or tribes each time.
I forgot the good stuff.
there is a 8th day in the seven year week, 1st resurrection. The temple become children of God.
there is a 8th day in the 2nd pentecost week which is a 100 year week and most likely began around 1969. It all depends on when the Jesus movement began. The Spirit will usher in the kingdom of god.
Stop thinking about the millinium. If you rise to meet Christ on the 8th day, time is no longer interesting. It is easy to define time in some ways. It is impossible to define eternity. Eternity in the kingdom of god beats hanging out with jesus ine spirit.
So . . .if you don’t believe in heaven or helll, think of it this way. If you did not want to spend time with Jesus in this life, you definitely will not want to spend time with him in the next. It is all good stuff.
As you can see, there is a lot of metaphor outside of Joseph’s week and Jesus’s passion week.
The Adopted have one week and one worker.
Given if one reads the bible and has a handle on the weeks that are obviously mentioned, you have the genesis week, the passion week and the seven year week plus one, the 1st resurrection week. The tribulation week thought needs to be dismissed. It actually is mixing two weeks (1st resurrection and 2nd pentecost week) and 4 weeks when really looking at the language (1st resurrection, 2nd pentecost, genesis and benjamin).
To review
God has 7 weeks and 7 workers
Israel has 7 weeks and 62 workers
Adopted has one week and one worker.
__________________________________
11 weeks are completely done to include the passion week.
4 weeks remain, Genesis, Benjamin, 2nd pentecost (jubilee) and 1st resurrection.
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All weeks mirror the passion week so again the whole proposition falls in line with Daniel 9:24.
The passion week has one worker, Jesus.
The passion week is the paradigm, the passion paradigm.
To understand what has been written involves a lot of work and definitely reading the bible completely through and understanding what history is unraveling in terms of mirroring the passion week.
Time is the problem. Time implies death. Time confines the story on many levels although each time God completes a week, a taste of the eternal enters time. Genesis, ark of the covenant, temple, immanuel, passion, pentecost and of course, the 2nd pentecost.
Eternity is where time does not exist. This is what happens to time when eternity take over. There is no time.
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You will not find any other information on this subject in this form. I have not written a book on it. The weeks or the passion paradigm has only been in the works since october 2012. The first 6 months was flushing out the weeks. I have a pretty good handle on the weeks, but it is pretty much basic. I know to break the weeks. I know how to name the weeks. It seems no one understands anything what I have written.
You are absolutely correct when saying “Daniels work is not self evident because at the very start, it is not about “seventy weeks” ; it is about seventy workers who work 15 weeks.
The weeks . . . versus what an hour is equal to . . . C means complete/ I – incomplete
God
Genesis – I —- the first shall be last (Needs to enter the 8th day) – Less Than a SECOND left.
Ark of Covenant – C
Temple – C
Immanuel – C
Passion (paradigm) -C
Pentecost – C
2nd Pentecost – I —- Is very active and probably IN THE MIDDLE OF THE WEEK.
Israel
Joseph – Egypt – C
Simeon – Famine – C
Levi – Desert . C
Judah – Babylon – C
Issachar – 70 AD Jerusalem – C
Zebulun – Holocaust – C
Benjamin – Death of Rachel’s Children – Israel 1948 – I ( basically done) The last shall be first — About 3 hours left.
Adopted
1st resurrection – I (probably also heading to the middle of the week. We need to see a massive joining together in the next year) IN the THIRD DAY
what needs to happen.
2nd pentecost . . . The spirit needs to leave the temple.
1st resurrection . . . The temple has to fall.
____________________________
So the big question is . . . where is the temple? The temple is where the Spirit fell upon 2000 years ago and has been continually fall in the same place. The temple is living stones.
So you have a lot of information to work with to figure out the passion paradigm. Maybe one day, I will write a book. The chances are better the 1st resurrection week will complete itself before I ever finish a book on the passion paradigm.
About weeks. Normally one always sees the middle of the week coming.
Noah saw it and built an ark.
Joseph saw it and warned the baker.
Jesus saw it and went to Jerusalem.
What is the middle of the week? Can you see it coming? Don*t get messed up on the mark. Jesus was marked above his head, but the cross was more important.
______________________________
How many times to forgive one’s brother? The cost of a week.
more than seventy times seven has been needed to complete the weeks.
whole creation went through turmoil on the 4th day of the genesis week
ark of covenant . . . first born died in egypt
Temple . . . The temple was destroyed. This has nothing to really do with the middle of the week. The spirit entered the temple in a prophet’s dream. casper the friendly ghost shekinah.
Immanuel . . . The flood. The world supposedly died.
Passion . . . Christ dies and resets time.
Pentecost . . . Curtain tore . . . and the poor galileans died., this is stretching.
2nd Pentecost . . . The spirit will leave the temple. Need for lots of blood. It is already happening.
________________________
Israel
Joseph . . . poor baker died and joseph lost his second coat.
Simeon . . . the land dies
Levi . . . the generation dies or the people. probably hundreds of thousands.
Judah . . . the kingdom dies or the king . . . lots of people die and go into exile babylono
Jerusalem 70 AD . . . 1 million according to the traitor josephus, he gets to play judas.
Holocaust . . . 6 million plus world fall out of dead. Don’t bring false fire to the sacrifice like Aaron’s sons.
Benjamin . . . death of the children under two at the time of Jesus’s birth
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Adopted
the 1st resurrection . . . how much blood to bring down the temple.
It goes like this . . .some will live in the wild. some will live in prison. some will suffer. some will be tortured. some willb e murdered. you get that two witnesses thing. . . . until enough blood has been shed. It is all good. Prison might be the safest place. Think John on patmos.