In the previous post, I asserted my position that Ezekiel’s vision was not a spacecraft. In doing so, I mentioned that I thought it had something to do with astrology/astronomy. I’ll try and unpack that a bit here. We’ll have to start with the visions:
Ezekiel 1:4-19 (JPS Tanakh)
4 I looked, and lo, a stormy wind came sweeping out of the north-a huge cloud and flashing fire, surrounded by a radiance; and in the center of it, in the center of the fire, a gleam as of amber. In the center of it were also the figures of four creatures. And this was their appearance: They had the figures of human beings. However, each had four faces, and each of them had four wings; the legs of each were [fused into] a single rigid leg, and the feet of each were like a single calf’s hoof; and their sparkle was like the luster of burnished bronze. They had human hands below their wings. The four of them had their faces and their wings on their four sides. Each one’s wings touched those of the other. They did not turn when they moved; each could move in the direction of any of its faces. Each of them had a human face the front]; each of the four had the face of a lion on the right; each of the four had the face of an ox on the left; and each of the four had the face of an eagle the back]. Such were their faces. As for their wings, they were separated: above, each had two touching those of the others, while the other two covered its body. And each could move in the direction of any of its faces; they went wherever the spirit impelled them to go, without turning when they moved. Such then was the appearance of the creatures. With them was something that looked like burning coals of fire. This fire, suggestive of torches, kept moving about among the creatures; the fire had a radiance, and lightning issued from the fire. Dashing to and fro [among] the creatures was something that looked like flares. As I gazed on the creatures, I saw one wheel on the ground next to each of the four-faced creatures. As for the appearance and structure of the wheels, they gleamed like beryl. All four had the same form; the appearance and structure of each was as of two wheels cutting through each other.And when they moved, each could move in the direction of any of its four quarters; they did not veer when they moved. Their rims were tall and frightening, for the rims of all four were covered all over with eyes. And when the creatures moved forward, the wheels moved at their sides; and when the creatures were borne above the earth, the wheels were borne too.
A couple of observations are important:
1. The creatures are unnamed.
2. The description reads as thought the creatures and wheels are separate items.
3. The creatures have four faces; the wheels do not.
4. The four faces are: human, lion, ox, eagle.
5. The wheels are covered with eyes; the creatures are not.
6. The wheels are “within” each other – sort of like an astrolabe (at least that is the impression).
7. The creatures and wheels move together.
In Ezekiel 10 the throne vision re-appears to Ezekiel:
I looked, and on the expanse over the heads of the cherubs, there was something like a sapphire stone; an appearance resembling a throne could be seen over them. He spoke to the man clothed in linen and said, “Step inside the wheelwork, under the cherubs, and fill your hands with glowing coals from among the cherubs, and scatter them over the city.” And he went in as I looked on. Now the cherubs were standing on the south side of the House when the man entered, and the cloud filled the inner court. But when the Presence of the Lord moved from the cherubs to the platform of the House, the House was filled with the cloud, and the court was filled with the radiance of the Presence of the Lord. The sound of the cherubs’ wings could be heard as far as the outer court, like the voice of El Shaddai when He speaks. When He commanded the man dressed in linen: “Take fire from among the cherubs within the wheelwork,” he went in and stood beside a wheel. And a cherub stretched out his hand among the cherubs to the fire that was among the cherubs; he took some and put it into the hands of him who was clothed in linen, who took it and went out. The cherubs appeared to have the form of a man’s hand under their wings. I could see that there were four wheels beside the cherubs, one wheel beside each of the cherubs; as for the appearance of the wheels, they gleamed like the beryl stone. In appearance, the four had the same form, as if there were two wheels cutting through each other. And when they moved, each could move in the direction of any of its four quarters; they did not veer as they moved. The [cherubs] moved in the direction in which one of the heads faced, without turning as they moved. Their entire bodies-backs, hands, and wings-and the wheels, the wheels of the four of them, were covered all over with eyes. It was these wheels that I had heard called “the wheelwork.” Each one had four faces: One was a cherub’s face, the second a human face, the third a lion’s face, and the fourth an eagle’s face. The cherubs ascended; those were the creatures that I had seen by the Chebar Canal.
There are several additions to chapter 1, which may or may not be different in description:
1. The creatures are here identified as cherubs (cherubim); no such identification was made in chapter 1.
2. 10:10 seems to suggest that the four cherubs each have the same sequence of faces; this could be inferred in chapter 1, but it is clearer here.
3. The four faces are (apparently) different: cherub, human, lion, eagle
4. Both the cherubs and the wheels are covered with eyes, not just the wheels (as it seemed from ch. 1).
5. The wheels are basically the same (like an astrolabe).
I’m not going to take the space here to discuss everything in both these visions. If you want that, I can recommend some fine scholarly commentaries and journal articles. For our purposes here, I need to comment on why I think this vision (these visions) are connected to astrology (which was indistinct from astronomy in ancient times – we’re not talking Miss Cleo here).
My view is that Ezekiel saw exactly the same thing in both visions. I just think certain details are added the second time around (ch. 10 is shorter, and presumes the reader has read the earlier material in certain regards). The fact that the suffix pronouns on the nouns (sorry for the Hebrew / grammar spasm) here are not distinct in Hebrew, even in terms of number and gender, can explain the ambiguities between the two descriptions. The four faces are not different either – though the orientation of the viewer (Ezekiel) appears to be different. What do I mean? First, in ch 10 “cherub” replaces “ox.” This is of no consequence since throne cherubs are often oxen in the iconography. The difference in terms doesn’t mean the creatures were different. In fact, Ezekiel tells us in ch. 10 that the creatures were the ones he’d seen in ch. 1 – back by the River Chebar (10:15). Let’s zero in, then, on the faces and the wheels.
Speaking of the vision of ch. 1, Dan Block, in his massive two volume commentary on the text of Ezekiel makes the following observation: “Since the inaugural vision came to the prophet from the north, the frontal view (south) would have had a human face, with the other three being arranged as follows”:
Block adds, “If the faces in 10:14 are also listed in clockwise order, the sequence is identical, and the cherub is identified with the bull.” Other scholars (like Leslie Allen in the Word Biblical Commentary, vol 1, of Ezekiel) note that the four faces suggest the four directions, or the cardinal points. He’s right — and what’s more, the faces of the creatures (cherubim) correspond to the four cardinal points of the zodiac. Scholars of ancient astronomy will tell you that the zodiac has a Babylonian derivation — which is precisely where Ezekiel is living and writing from. The following artistic rendering of the cardinal points illustrates (note that the human face corresponds to the human figure of Aquarius):
The one thing I think most noteworthy about all this is the eyes. In Ezekiel 1 we read that the wheels were full of eyes. What does that have to do with the zodiac or astrology? Simple. The Hebrew word for “eyes” is ‘ayin. This is the normal word for that body part through which we see. The same word is also used (by Ezekiel, no less — in the SAME CHAPTER) to describe “sparkling” or “gleaming” (cf. Ezek. 1:4; Ezek. 1:16). Here’s a suggestion: “eyes” should be understood in Ezekiel 1 AND Ezekiel 10 as “stars” (“sparkling things”). This fits amazingly well with chapter 10, since there both the creatures and the wheels have the eyes. Get it . . . creatures . . . cardinal points of the zodiac . . . the creatures having eyes (“stars”) in them? What creatures have stars in them? The ones you see in the sky – the signs of the zodiac.
And for kickers, this is also what the apostle John says he saw in Revelation 4-5 when he looked up into the heavens — animals with stars in them.
No, it wasn’t a flying saucer. Ezekiel’s visions are about an enthroned God who controls the the cycles of time (the zodiac and its movements), and is up to something . . . .
One passing thought (and it isn’t for PaleoBabble to lay this out): What if, when Jesus said that there would be signs in the heavens pointing to the second coming, he meant exactly what he said? Not that we could know the day or hour (which Jesus flatly said we could not) – but which would give us SOME information.
Remember the star of Bethlehem? Who saw it and knew what it meant? Magi . . . from . . . BABYLON. Hmmmm.
The Magi knew what it meant…what does this mean? I mean, I understand the sentence, but what would the significance be….I have read somewhere that the magi were kind of like ancient magicians, hence the word “magic” from “magi”, but why would THEY know the significance?
I think you’re right that there will literally be a sign in the heavens.
So Ezekial is seeing the four cardinal points and the zodiac? What is the sound they are making in verse 5? The stars are making noise? The presence of the LORD moving about the zodiac? None of this makes any sense….
@Catherine_B1: We need not understand each element of the vision to get its thrust (kind of like the parables – the point can still be discerned without exhaustive understanding of each sub-point of the analogy). For the Magi, I’d recommend either Ernest Martin’s book, The Star that Astonished the World, or the video at this link:
http://thestarofbethlehemmovie.com/
So what came first, Michael….the astrology or the things that engendered astrology?
That is, from whence did astrology derive, and what are the mechanisms that made it what it was (before it became the thing it is today).
Was the symbology derived from astronomical insights given to man by extraterrestrials, as Shklovskii (and Sagan) intimated in “Intelligent life in the Universe” [Delta, 1966, Page 449 ff.] or is the symbology a remnant of the collective unconscious as Jung postulated (in all his works)?
Did Ezekiel tap into his collective unconscious? Or got his polemical ideas from the artifacts and drawings, sculpted works all around him, as you indciate?
Or did Ezekiel have an experience that he found difficult to relate but tried to present as best he could?
After all, the rest of Ezekiel’s diatribes are devoid of the imagery that you present here.
And saying he had “visions” sort of makes it seem he was delusional, even though you take an expanded view of the word.
Can’t we just say that Ezekiel saw what he saw and gave it the best interpretation he was capable of?
Rich (RRR)
@rrrgroup: Not sure what your stumblingblock is. I haven’t said that Ezekiel didn’t see anything – ?
And to answer your question, the stars were around long before there was astrology. Pretty obvious.
WHY DO YOU SAY THAT THE “EAGLE” IS OPHIUCHUS?
THE SCORPIO IS A FIXED SIGN AS ARE THE OTHER FACES…AND ALSO THE SCORPIO CONSTELLATION WAS ALSO KNOWN AS THE EAGLE OR PHOENIX…..
http://www.elore.com/Astrology/Study/scorpio.htm
THANK YOU
ALESIAH
@Alesiah: I’m not saying it can only be this or that, only that the iconography was used this way in Babylon.
Hummm, Super interesting. The stars instead of the literal eye balls are definitely more consistent. I have read about the Mazzaroth (Mentioned in the Hebrew of Job I think) and how (supposedly) the Zodiac is derived from it. The 12 tribes of Israel also supposedly cohere with this Mazzaroth in the Heavens.
I also want to get a pack of The Star Of Bethlehem DVD Movie but they are out of stock on the originating website.
Doesn’t the Mazzaroth illustrate, at least to a certain level, the Messiah, since it starts with the Virgin and ends with Leo (Rev 5, where Christ is the Lion of the Tribe of Judah). Doesn’t it all match?
@blop2008: Revelation 12 (the first part = the birth of Christ) can be mapped astronomically with great precision. The DVD you mention is good, though it makes a couple mistakes, and he never credits the real source of this material (Dr. Ernest Martin).
Sounds very interesting and I can see where this is going. Makes more sense that a lot of other interpretations. However, there are a few things that don’t seem to sum up.
1. What about the noises of thunder that the wings make
2. What about the fire that the clothed man took in between the cherubins to scatter among the city?
3. If cherubs actually mean ox, so are you saying that throughout the entire Bible (Kings, Chronicles, Psalms) it was actually referring to oxes with wings up to 30 feet that could fly??????
4. According to the zodiac, I have never seen a version where lions, humans, and bulls having wings. I think that really stretching out the truth to fit in your argument.
5. How would you explain the following?
Ezekiel 10:7
Then one of the cherubim reached out his hand to the fire that was among them. He took up some of it and put it into the hands of the man in linen, who took it and went out.
Ezekiel 10:8
Under the wings of the cherubim could be seen what looked likethe hands of a man.
I don’t think oxes/bulls have hands. But where can I find find icongraphy of cherubs being bulls?
6. I can see how the sphinx may resemble a cherub based on your zodiac model but
as far as the sphinx goes the Egyptians never hand wings on their sphinx, at least there is no proof of it. They may became fused with rams and there are statues today but none with wings. The sphinx itself originated in Egypt. Greek version of the sphinx with wings came much later, about 600 BC around the Bronze Age. In the Bible, Cherubs are never described anything else except having wings up to 30 feet and can fly, with hands like a man, and 4 faces.
You would really really really have to stretch the truth once again to fit it in your ideology.
I could be wrong on some of these, but so far I haven’t found any evidence to support your zodiac theory. If you could provide me some evidence from credible sources or scriptures, that would help! Thanks
@herqlez253: Here are replies to specifics (see **):
1. What about the noises of thunder that the wings make
** thunder is noisy. It is never silent.
2. What about the fire that the clothed man took in between the cherubins to scatter among the city?
** this is stock imagery of theophany elsewhere in the OT (cf. the burning bush). Why? Because divine beings are often described as luminous – fire gives off light. There is also the ancient association with the sun, conceived as made of fire not because of primitive science, but because it gave off heat. The sun and other things like stars and planets moved in the sky, and so were considered to be alive / animate. In short, this is the normal way to describe a deity. It doesn’t compel the notion of space travel.
3. If cherubs actually mean ox, so are you saying that throughout the entire Bible (Kings, Chronicles, Psalms) it was actually referring to oxes with wings up to 30 feet that could fly??????
** no – meaning is always determined by CONTEXT. This imagery in Ezekiel is contextualized by the iconography associated with (divine or human) kingship. The cardinal points of the zodiac add to the divine / celestial context.
4. According to the zodiac, I have never seen a version where lions, humans, and bulls having wings. I think that really stretching out the truth to fit in your argument.
** then you need to do some reading on the ancient zodiac – and the point of the wings is that the animals are in the SKY (wings=flight), and so the zodiac association is quite appropriate (the constellations are in the SKY).
5. How would you explain the following?
** ONE of the cherubim (v. 7 that you quote) was fashioned as a man – and men have hands.
** I’ve posted examples of cherubim as bulls. A cherubim was simply a throne guardian (the Akkadian word karub, which is cognate to Hebrew cherub/charub = throne guardian). THere were other names for throne guardians (Egyptian, seraf = a serpent; Assyrian lamassu – Google lamassu and look at the pictures – the creatures have hooves). There are a number of good books on ancient near eastern and biblical iconography; some in English. Look up works by Othmar / O. Keel on Amazon for a sampling.
SEE THE VISION At BLOG
http://mytheological.blogspot.com/
The Vision
The prophet Ezekiel was a priest who received prophetic messages from God. He lived among other citizens of the nation of Judah during the years of Babylonian captivity, in the year 597 B.C.
In the very first chapter of his book, he describes an amazing vision of God, which came to him at the beginning of his ministry.
Ezekiel 1:1-21 “Now it was, in the thirtieth year, in the fourth (month), in the fifth (day) of the month, as I (Ezekiel) (was) among the captives by the river Chebar (which was the main canal of the Euphrates, south of Babylon, (there, by the river) were opened (to view) the heavens (the higher expanse of the abode of God, as seen from the eyes of a mortal man who dwells upon the earth) and I saw visions (revelations) of God.”
“On the fifth of the month, it (was) the fifth of the month, it (was) the year the fifth of the captivity of the King Jehotachin, the word of Jehovah came to Ezekiel, the son of Buzi, the priest in the land of the Chaldeans by the river Chebar. And was upon him there the hand of Jehovah (overpowering his limited human perception, enabling him, thusly to see the vision of God).”
Matthew Henry.- That he might see the visions of God the heavens were opened; the darkness and distance which hindered his visions were conquered. He felt the power of God opening his eyes to see the visions, opening his ear to hear the voice, and opening his heart to receive both.
(Continuing Ezekiel 1:1-21) “And I (Ezekiel) looked, and behold a wind of storm came out of the north, a great could (a visible, buoyant, moving body mass, consider – an airship suspended in the sky), and a fire flashing itself (resulting from the explosive effects of weapon’s fired at high velocity), and a brightness to it (from the explosive outburst) all around, and out of its midst (i.e. from the metal tubes of the weapons it was) like the color of polished bronze out of the middle of the fire (from the explosion).”
“Also (in addition to all this) from its midst (the center of all this action) (came) the likeness of four living creatures (living beings).”
High up, in the heavens, God “mounted the cherubim and flew”; He soared on the “wings of the wind” through His providence unrestrained by time or matter to reveal this vision to the prophet Ezekiel.
(Continuing Ezekiel 1:1-21) “And this (description I Ezekiel give to you) (was) how they (the living creatures the men) looked (to me back in the year 597 B.C.); the likeness of a man (was) to them; and to each four faces (as there were four distinctly different men that I saw- but to me, never having seen such marvelous creations, the living creatures seemed to be part man) and (part mechanical bird with) four wings to each of them (not comprehending at the time that they were men in airplanes- consequently, the following narrative); and their feet (i.e., the main landing gear of the planes) (were) feet of straightness (they were extended rigidly and did not bend); and the sole of their feet (upon which the main landing gear seemed to rest- the mudguards actually) (was) (to my recollection) like the sole of the foot of a calf; and they sparkled like the color of burnished copper.”
“And from under their wings on (all) four of their sides (i.e., on each side of the two biplanes were seen) the hands of a man (they were the hands of those seated in the open fuselage); and there (were) (four) (on the biplanes), joining each on (that is on the left and right) (of) their wings to the other. (The aircraft moved, this way and that but) they (the men) did not turn in their going; each one (of the men) toward the front (the direction) of their (pilots) face they went.”
“And the likeness of their faces (looked like) the face of a man, and (in addition, the man) on the right (side) (fig., the man on the right is in a position of strength and power) to the four of them (on basis – they being the only passenger with sole use of a weapon; this one man), had the face of a lion (accounting to the thick growth of his beard); and (in addition to these two men in the biplane) on the left (the weaker) (side) to the four of them (defensively speaking the two pilots in the fighter planes, without weapons were in a position of what would seemingly be an disadvantage; one of the two, the first one I saw had) the face of an ox (in comparative likeness to that sort of an animal); and (lastly) to the four of them (the remaining one had) the face of an eagle (owing to the goggles he wore) , so their faces (were).”
“And their (that is, the) wings (of the biplane) were spread (the lower wings were separated longitudinally) upward (from the lower by the use of wing struts); to each (the left and right sides of) the two (wings) were joined (of) each one (that is, though the wings of the biplane had a right and left side- the construction was of one piece), and (the) two (wings) (that is, the left and right side of the top wings) covered their bodies (from above-were, also constructed of one piece). And each toward the front (in the direction) of their (pilots) faces (they) went (they did not fly backwards but in a forward direction). To where there was the (willful desire of the) spirit to go: they went; they did not turn (as one would bend a horse’s neck to change direction) in their going.”
“And the likeness of the living creatures (firing the weapons), like coals of burning fire (were the projectiles expelled from the firearms), (and) the appearance of torches (were the weapons using an explosive as a propellant). It (the volley of the simultaneous discharge) (was) continually circling among the living creatures. And bright (was the fire of the volley) and out of the fire (the explosive discharge) went forth (a flash, like) lightening (when the weapons were discharged). And the living creatures kept running (rapidly) and (swiftly in the sky) returning (in their continuing attacks), like the appearance of (the great speed of) a flash of lightening.”
“And I looked at the living creatures (in the vision), and behold one wheel (of a motor vehicle) (was) on the earth (this man in the vision was) beside (in addition to the vision of) the living creatures, with the four of its faces (I previously described).”
“The appearance of the wheels (of the motor vehicle) and their workmanship (the rim and hubcap were) like the color of beryl (which is a silver white metal- similar to aluminum) and the likeness one (was) to the four of them (the wheels were all alike). And their (the vehicles hubcaps, were round in) appearance and their workmanship was like the wheel in the middle (in the center) of the (rims of the) wheel.”
“On the four (corners) of their sides (housed within the wheel well were situated) in their going (forth) they (all the wheels) went; they (the fender areas of the vehicle itself) did not turn (in different directions, but remained stationary) in their going. And their rim, even high (in magnificence and splendor) to them (in my eyes) even awesome (in my sight were the tires) to them (extraordinary and exceptionally outstanding); and their (the tires) rims (with their highly polished chrome hubcaps) (were) full of eyes (like a mirror reflection) all around the four of them.”
@Karen Tabler: evidence, please.
I didn’t read all of the comments so this may already have been stated but the symbols used in Ezekiel’s vision are also the Standards of the tribes of Israel. As stated North, South, East, West. So I think you are on the right Path. However if I’m not mistaken one of the “ships” was carrying Gods throne?
some scholars familiar with ancient “astro-theology” have also assigned astro-theological significance to those standards. In Ezekiel there is only one throne, not multiple “ships”.
I personally never had a problem understanding Ezekiel’s vision as it relates to astrology because I have always assumed it to be a case religiously fevered poetic license, and a competition between different sources ‘prophecy’. As with all politics, its always best not to name your competition outright, thereby unintentionally propagating it and potentially increasing its presumed validity.
As mentioned above, I think astrology is just another (major case) of human thought processes being projected as part of the underlying framework of any attempted imaging scheme involving circles and totalities (the Absolute). GWF Hegel has apparently either been influenced by the ‘astrological’-ness of reality , or he , like Ezekiel, would rather not call upon it by name. We can use the Babylonian contribution to the art to show how Hegel gets his ideas about dialectical relations , and even how Jacques Lacan uses this ” like a language” structure of unconscious to make Hegel’s dialectics into the tools of his Freudian-styled school of psychoanalysis. Here are a couple of images I made to show what is going on with these symbols at the idea level perceptions:
http://pedantus.free.fr/SilentAstrologicalTemplate.gif
http://pedantus.free.fr/HegelsDialectics_01a.gif
To understand the “noise(s)” referred to you have to understand a bit more about astrology as a human psychical phenomenon. That’s where everyone wants to jump ship…: ) But, suffice it to say, that the unsettling nature of sounds is related to what modern astrology calls the planet Uranus. Thunder is the Promethean flash of insight in the form of an auditory perception ..the calamity which signals change and a need for adaption. Humming and droning sound is the hallmark of continued industry…the activity sounds, the makings and doings of something in production. It matters not what abstract object or level of abstraction is appealed to for an expression of an ‘artists’ intentions. Uranus is noise, chaos, and invention…”stealing fire from God(s).”
From what I read here, I think the desire to take everything way to literally when attempting to understand an artistic expression really does defeat the writers purposes….Ezekiel is here a dramatist trying to say that he gets his message directly from God, this even if some of his audience were inclined to think ‘astrologically’ because having long been in captivity the young may have learned an adopted the philosophical view of local astral religion(s)…already ancient and considered the best source of (what we moderns may think of as the Hegelian Absolute ) truth being mediated by man in accordance with the development of a given consciousness.
Rog
Excellent comment but I would like to ask and comment something else and I would like to know your approach. Visions -like dreams- are experienced and usually most Christians haven’t witnessed real visions. What if under odd circumstances, perhaps hallucinogenic substances, the prophets and shamans have ACTUALLY SEEN the hybrid hum-animals which don’t need to be “explained” as related with the houses of the gods or constellations and precessions but THE CHERUBIM THEMSELVES dwelling in interdimensional space? Because all ancient civilizations have depicted different animals in the skies, not plants or rocks. If we compare Chinese zodiac with Mayan, Moche, Nazca, Inca the animals are different. The Egyptians mummified bulls and the cow is the sacred animal in India. Gods with several limbs, faces and wings. Would it be the constellations were linked to these 4 animals not because they were worshipping the realms of the gods BUT THE GODS inhabitting such? You can see even Amazon shamans under Ayahuasca depict humans with 4 faces, snake-men and cosmic bulls as seen in visions (check Hancock’s Supernatural). The geologist Robert Schoch was candid enough he saw a couple of ghosts at Marcauasi, Peruvian plateau, almost 4000 meters upon sea level… a place where it’s very common to witness Egyptian gods levitating.
Some have said the lion is a quality meaning “justice”. Why a lazy beast which sometimes kill cubs do have to represent justice? Maybe Satan HAS ALWAYS BEEN a roaring lion as one of his faces and we wrongly thought it was a symbol. There’s no reason to think eagle is wiser than other birds and certainly human beings have showed everything BUT “love”, so why assuming or imagining the human face of the cherub means “love”?
Could it be the cherubim DO ACTUALLY HAVE literally these shapes in their dimension? Is it impossible or unlikely? Dark secret chambers in the temples didn’t allow the entrance of light. Would it be the purpose to ENHANCE THE VISIONS by producing more MELATONIN in the darkness?
It’s interesting Ezekiel 41:19 describes one of the faces of the cherubim with the Hebrew word “KEFIR” which is not just a lion BUT A YOUNG LION OR LION CUB. What’s the feature of a young lion? IT HAS NO MANE or not fully grown. And the skin depicts SPOTS like a LEOPARD an animal appearing in Daniel’s vision, for example.
When scientists try to prove evolution they bombed Drosophila flies with gamma rays and ADDED EYES ON WINGS AND FEET! We have seen two-faced bulls and 2-faced kitties with freak mutations. Even cats with “wings” (actually a disease called feline cutaneus astenia). The LIGERS offspring of tigers and lions are twice the size of a tiger, have spots of a leopard and lion’s mane in some cases. There’s a stuff specimen of a RED LEOPARD (like Apocalypse vision!) because of erithrema disease. Could it be those mutations do happen (like the Indian girl who looks like having 4 arms and legs) BECAUSE IN THE INTERDIMENSIONAL REALM the reality beyond ours is like that????
Before disregarding the idea as absurd, remember Corinthians says Satan disguises into light using two Greek words, ,metashematizo the root of metamorphosis and phosphorous or light-carrier. This could suggest Satan, the former hanashasch “seraph” dragon 6-winged snake with feet and hands….. is able to be a shapeshifter because he knows the secret of light… including holograms. We don’t have to assume there’s no shape in those invisible dimensions. We don’t have to interpret they are archetypes or symbols. A hologram can record the ‘reality’ in 2D but with laser beams that light could resemble 3D.
WHAT IF WHAT WE SEE IN OUR DIMENSION is not really the whole or complete ultimate reality? We could watch a bull, a lion, na eagle and ourselves as “complete” but it could be the FRAGMENTED piece of something that in God’s universe is “complete”. That’s why the vision of the cherubim or those Hare Krishna’s gods depicted in the books LOOK LIKE HORRIBLE MONSTERS because it’s possible they are “glued’ or “complete” in that way while we are used to watch our fragmented reality (broken glass) like complete.
Glowing eyes could mean just fluorescent eyes rather than stars. Isn’t it true now they combine the green protein of a jellyfish with monkeys, swine, rabbits, cats to make them GLITTER when lit with ultraviolet light? Who’s inspiring those experiments really? Isn’t it true Leviticus FORBADE HYBRIDIZATION? Isn’t it true the Book of Jasher (mentioned in Samuel) mentions the mixing of human and animal flesh? Who did that DNA combo? My guess is CHERUBIM DO HAVE THAT REAL FREAK (as seen in odd circumstances even without hallucinogenic trip or people without schizophrenia) SHAPE.
Once I wrote to Sitchin both him and Daniken are wrong. I included in the letter (he responded 3 times) a photocopy of a bacteriophague vírus T4. I wrote they would swear that was not a vírus but a lunar rover!!!!
My other question is if that “rainbow” seen by Ezekiel was not a bow at all considering in Apocalypse that rainbow was also mentioned but been emerald green and the Greek word used was “IRIS” like our eyes, that is a CIRCULAR GREEN RAINBOW lacking the word for “halo”. Ezekiel describes that thing “like” a rainbow without saying if it actually had so many colors as people would imagine.
Your explanation saying the “stones of fire” planets IS VALID. Paul wrote he saw the third heaven, could it be the Enochian spheres are heavens?
flies with eyes on feet:
http://fotolog.terra.com.mx/inca:884
http://fotolog.terra.com.mx/inca:883
Liger, hybrid of lion and tiger; leopon (leopard and lion hybrid), two-faced cat, two-faced calf, red leopard (eritrism disease), ancient snake with FEET
http://fotolog.terra.com/detodounpoco:25
http://fotolog.terra.com/detodounpoco:2
http://fotolog.terra.com/detodounpoco:62
http://fotolog.terra.com/detodounpoco:76
http://fotolog.terra.com/detodounpoco:178
http://fotolog.terra.com/detodounpoco:176
http://fotolog.terra.com/detodounpoco:175
In one of your speeches you confirmed you basically took David Flynn’s explanation about the corners of the universe and constellations as a clock of the universe. However, that was a CHANGE OF VIEW from your part and you allowed yourself to be convinced. It’s not a bad explanation. Looks reasonable but it doesn’t mean it’s real.
Specially if you take into consideration CONSTELLATIONS DON’T HAVE THE SHAPE PEOPLE IMAGINE. In the past the priests just set animals in heavens and fingerpicked their favorite stars among many others. And then they hooked IMAGINARY LINES to link the ones they chose among others. The incas saw black space with no stars and imagined a fox or a lama and so on… Always different animals in different cultures. As anyone can see LEO doesn’t look like a lion at all but a hanger to dry clothes and TAURUS barely resembles deformed “horns”.
Neither Flynn nor you have explained why ancient people had to put hybrid humanimals in the sky and we have seen the symbols don’t match either. I think everybody repeats like a parrot they are symbols. In one of these images I set NEBULAS with the real shapes of eyes. There are galaxies with the shape of DNA. Birkelan plasma looks like having twin snakes’ tail. I believe all these explanations come from the lack of Faith because few people have had real visions like the prophets and prefer to interpret them. In some cases the prophet explains himself the beasts are kings. Now, why do hybrid multiple head monster represents kings in first place? Wouldn’t it be the very demons who are behind politicians or at least some rebel cherubs do have that hybrid freak feature? Isn’t it true flags and armours usually deçpict animals?
Of course, if people need to “see” before believing, they wouldn’t understand why the bidimensional project of some temples resemble human shape (anthropomorphous). The fact is even some parts of the temple had BULLS made of metal.
http://fotolog.terra.com.mx/inca:115
http://fotolog.terra.com.mx/inca:322
http://fotolog.terra.com.mx/inca:323
In Peru, the descents of Incas never heard the modern explanations and yet during YAWAR FIESTA they have been tying a CONDOR RIGHT ONTO A BULL while the shamans dress the COUGAR SKIN very similar to Egyptian depictions of Bird-man riding a bull or bull-lion combo. For them these are the spirits of the VERY GODS and NOT merely “constellations”. We don’t have to confuse the CLOCK FOR TIME with the CREATURES THEMSELVES IN THEIR RESPECTIVE REALM OR SPACE.
It’s no “coincidence” the Shekinah cloud was ABOVE the ark of the covenant. Isaiah 6 says it was the SERAPHIM not the cherubim, the ones closer to the throne. The cherubim seemed to be next to the WHEELS below the firmament (raqia). I want to remind you 2000 years ago Flavius Josephus admitted no one was sure about the likeness of the cherubim over the ark. I never swallowed the humanoid angel appearance.
I’ve just edited my previous comment and wait for your reply. Thanks.
In this presentation of yours you admit it’s an opened issue the difference between cherub sphinx-like creatures and seraphim:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=M78FxeEbe7g&NR=1
My suggestion is WE SHALL NOT FORGET APOCALYPSE 12 DESCRIBES THE DRAGON AS THE ORIGINAL SNAKE which means 2000 years ago it was understood the identity. And because Genesis says from certain point on the creature would have to crawl, it means it didn’t before and it was like the winged-snakes mentioned by Isaiah 14:29 and 30:6. It was Isaiah 6 the one who identified the seraphim with 6 wings and hands and feet CLOSER TO GOD’S THRONE.
If what you say is right about the Ugarit use of the word Earth-lion chamaleon Greek link, there was a METAMORPHOSIS and probably Satan the dragon or winged-seraphim was TRANSFORMED INTO SOMETHING LESSER, a cherubim. Surely that could be a punishment for the one condemned due to his ARROGANCE. Though snakes don’t eat dirt, the crawling position and its tongue closer to the ground (erts) would enhance the Fall.
Now, what I don’t understand is what you said that Eve wasn’t surprised by the presence of the talking dragon seraphim. It seems the copper snake lifted by Moses is also a reference to the seraphim and a similar copper snake (not “bronze”) was shown at Tel Aviv museum from those ancient times. The words nahash nehoshet are tongue-twisters like copper and cobra.
The curse came AFTER those events. So where was Eve when these events happened? If the snake was sent to Earth from wherever dimension it was, obviously the events where happening somewhere else that was not Earth or was it not? The curse and degradation happened AFTER these events and eating of the fruit.
Would it be the third heavens Paul saw or the Jewish concept of Eden which was not really Earth? You quote Enoch and I ignore if for him Eden was on Earth or yet other sphere.
Very, very interesting the explanation you’ve spoken about the Ugaritic mention of earth-lion chamaleon. My view after saying Flavius Josephus admitted 2000 years ago no one was sure about the likeness of the cherubim. I think they were like Ezekiel described them:
http://fotolog.terra.com.mx/inca:15
http://fotolog.terra.com.mx/inca:909
Not humanoids with wings as portrayed in Raiders of the Lost Ark unless you want to say Ezekiel didn’t see what he wrote in detail that he saw, unless we say his visions were not divine and he merely copied from what he saw in Babylon or references in Sumerian realm.
We know what is a chameleon. Yet we have to understand this animal received that ANCIENT GREEK NAME because it changes its outward appearence. It’s not enough though. We need to comprehend WHY THEY NAMED IT EARTH-LION or chameLEON ‘leon” being LION. This is one of the features of the cherubim. If the name is related with a shapeshifter or “changeling” we need to explain why the relationship with the LION in first place and not just repeat like a parrot the origin of the word. Won’t you agree? There’s a reason why Ezekiel (41:19) refers to a YOUNG LION (the Hebrew word here is KEFIR) and not just an adult lion with full grown mane. I have never read any comment about this but my view is very simple. Ezekiel just SAW A YOUNG LION CUB. Take or leave it. I don’t think we have just to discuss about Hebrew exegesis unless we get to a point we get cynical and ignore the fundament of what we are dealing here.
Yet the name cherubim in Mespotamia refered to bulls. IT’S NOT -in my humble opinion- “just” cardinal point or “constellations clock”. These creatures are real unless you believe Ezekiel lied. He could’ve said simply these cherubim “means” stars. He didn’t in spite of David Flynn’s approach. And if you say it’s cardinal positions or constellations you will have to explain why the difference between 4 wings of the cherubim and six of the seraphim… exegesis, that is, you are the one who knows better!
They are more bull than the rest of the animal features. How do I know that? Is it because my bright scholarship in Hebrew? Nope! It’s because the text says THEIR FEET (not just one among 4 faces) WERE LIKE THE ONES OF THE CALF.
Why did John in Apocalypse 4 didn’t write neither seraphim nor cherubim? Because they were “living beings” completly different from both of those categories. How do I know that? Because the seraphim winged-snakes with feet and hands do have 6 wings while the cherubim have merely 4 wings. And these creatures don’t look like dragons but rather than having the 4 faces and 4 wings of the cherubim they have 6 wings of the seraphim and just one out 4 faces of the cherubim. THEY ARE HYBRID OF CHERUBIM AND SERAPHIM and if you ask why, the answer is not provided by me but the very text saying there was not only new Earth but NEW HEAVENS. Perhaps because the cherubim are rebels deceiving mankind. Or at least some of them.
This backs up my idea the dragon seraphim winged-snake closer to God’s throne perhaps was changed by God into a likeness of something like a LION like AHRIMAN with 4 wings in ancient Babylon and Persia, He was not a common cherubim though.That’s why that Ahriman had a snake wrapped around his body. The New Testament says Satan is like a roaring lion and it’s not my fault if not even Christians believe that spiritual invisible realm is real. It’s not my fault if most Christians have to transform the invisible world into “symbols” just because their eyes can’t see that realm. There are bodies in glory and corrupted…. He was talking serious.
It’s unraveling data when we know Mayan god Seven Macaw was ARROGANT god related with a TREE, whose shape was GEMSTONES and himself sort of a bird-man (the eagle feature of the cherubim which makes us think about the eagle-men near the tree in Assyria). This suggests the dragon perhaps related (transformed?) into a cherub due to his arrogance:
Mayan Satan cherub:
http://fotolog.terra.com/detodounpoco:1244
I think it’s fascinating about the “eyes” being stars. The only thing I don’t get is that in present-day astrology Leo is not opposite Taurus nor is Aquarius opposite Scorpio as shown in the first diagram. Perhaps the Babylonia zodiac was a bit different? The second picture also shows the signs of the zodiac in reverse order. This is not the way the appear in the sky. In the northern hemisphere, horoscopes are erected with the observer looking south. But let’s say one is looking north. If Leo is in that northern point, Scorpio would not be on the eastern point; Taurus would be there.
The Merkabah mysteries, which remained the exclusive property of the initiated ones, the “ashsha’im” (see Essenes), have been preserved chiefly in the Enoch literature of the pre-Christian centuries, and in the “Hekalot” of the geonic time, known also as the “Merkabah” and “Enoch Books” (see Jellinek, “B. H.” ii. 40-47, 114-117, and Introduction xiv.-xvii., xxx., xxxii.; iii. 83-108, 161-163, and Introduction xx.-xxv.; v. 170-190 and Introduction xli.-xliii.; Wertheimer, “Batte Midrashot,” ii. 15-28; see Hekalot). Part of it has been embodied in the “payyean-edushshah” literature and has found its way also into other ancient apocrypha, such as the Testament of Abraham, the Ascensio Isaiæ, etc. Besides the descriptions of the seven heavens with their hosts of angels, and the various storehouses of the world, and of the divine throne above the highest heaven, the most remarkable feature is that the mysteries rest on the belief in the REALITY of the things seen in an ecstatic state brought about by ablutions, fasts, fervent invocations, incantations, and by other means. This is called “the Vision of the Merkabah” (“?efiyat ha-Merkabah”), and those under this strange hallucination, who imagine themselves entering the Heavenly Chariot and floating through the air, are called “Yorede Merkabah” (“those that go down into the ship-like chariot”; Jellinek, “B. H.” iii. 90, 94 et seq.). In this chariot they are supposed to ascend to the heavens, where in the dazzling light surrounding them they behold the innermost secrets of all persons and things, otherwise impenetrable and invisible.
I believe it was Bullinger who first suggested this idea, but there is only one little problem with this association. It clearly says in Chapter 1 that he saw a Man’s face, and to the right: Lion, to the left: Ox, and then he mentions Eagle. This is consistent with the first diagram shown above with the 4 directions where Lion and Ox are opposite each other (although if you look at Jewish tradition you will most likely find: Man=West, Ox=North, Lion=South, Eagle=East). But then in the “star chart” below, that placement is not respected; the lion and the ox are next to each other rather than opposite each other. So it simply does not work. Further, I believe that Aquarius should be in the north and Leo should be in the south. So again it does not seem to work.
Sorry.
Is it possible that Cherubim and Seraphim are the same creatures? Isaiah’s Seraphim (as elohim) are never mentioned again in the Bible and when the word ‘Seraph’ is used elsewhere, it is synonymous with ‘nachash’ (Numbers 21.8-9, Isaiah 14.29). Satan is called a ‘nachash’ in Genesis, but referred to as a Cherub in Ezekiel 28.4 rather than a Seraph. Since the descriptions of Isaiah’s Seraphim (ch. 6), Ezekiel’s Cherubim (ch. 1 and 10), and John’s Living Creatures (Revelation 4) are so similar, and none of those terms are ever used in the same vision, could they simply be different names for the same beings?
It’s different ways (terminology) of describing the same ROLE (throne guardians). See Unseen Realm, p. 297.
Thanks for the reply! I had marked note 4 on that page and I suppose I forgot about it (there was so much good material in that book that I marked, I have to read it again).
Also, The Unseen Realm, this blog, your podcasts, and the articles you reference have been more influential in my study of the Bible than most of the material I came across while earning my B.S. in Biblical Studies…so thanks for your work and know I’m doing my best to share it with others.
Glad to know the content is useful! Please do spread the word.
Hmm could the wheel that appears like beryl be a reference the milky way?
When one looks at the milk way in the sky it has the appearance of a beryl stone in the sky as if it were a wheel that stretches out around the earth.
Also could the flares that dash between the living things be meterors/ shooting stars which are seen in the sky.