For those interested (I’ve posted several interviews in the past couple of weeks, so this may be redundant), I’ll be appearing on the Jim Bakker show Tuesday and Wednesday, April 25-26. We recorded these shows on Good Friday. Both interviews include Derek Gilbert and Tom Horn.
This was my first visit to the heart of the Pentecostal zone in what I affectionately call Christian Middle Earth. (Click here for a fun explanation of the metaphor). I have some thoughts on the experience, which was a positive one across the board.
I was hesitant to do the interview because of Bakker’s past. I had a while to think about it because my publisher let me know that this was a show with which they have a friendly history. The more I thought about it, my resistance started to feel a bit ungodly. I really don’t know what more Jim Bakker could do to demonstrate repentance. How many people produce a 600-page book entitled “I Was Wrong” and publicly turn from what he had promoted (the awful, manipulative prosperity gospel)? In modern terms, I though of someone like Chuck Colson as an analogy. In biblical terms, it felt like rejecting someone like Matthew or Zaccheus, both of whom were naturally hated by their peers. My takeaway after meeting Jim was that sometimes people really mean it when they acknowledge their sin and repent, and sometimes people really do learn their lesson. I wasn’t sure I’d feel that way before agreeing to the interview, but I did.
For sure Jim is no theologian. But he doesn’t pretend to be one. He had no interest in trying to make me think he was something that he wasn’t. He kept reminding me that he wasn’t a biblical scholar in the green room before and in-between shows. Consequently, those who are familiar with the content of The Unseen Realm, Supernatural, and Reversing Hermon will hear him get some things wrong during the shows. There were points of the content he didn’t process as well as I’d like, but the lesson here is that he made the effort. He and I would of course have theological disagreements (something I whimsically suspect is true with respect to any host of any show I’ve ever done). I’m also generally wary of Pentecostalism because of the New Apostolic Reformation, one of its sub-cultures whose theology I can neither exegetically defend nor endorse. But it’s crystal clear to me that if anyone in Christian Middle Earth needs a good dose of solid academic content on the spiritual world it’s this audience — the Pentecostal wing of Christian Middle Earth. They aren’t going to come to me, so I need to go to them — or just let its constituents think poorly about Scripture. I can’t be part of the solution if they are never exposed to what I write. To be bluntly honest, there are a lot of churches, pastors, and Christians with public profiles with whom I am more comfortable — and who know me — who haven’t lifted a finger to help promote any of my books or the Naked Bible Podcast. My audience already knows why — my work challenges their preconceptions and doesn’t make their denominational preferences feel more secure. I’d rather have someone willing to learn who might not process everything the way I’d like than have someone who could understand the material well refuse to help me get the content to more people because they don’t want to feel the disapproval of friends.
Only one of those options is useful for helping more people think well about Scripture, and that’s what I’m about. Hopefully this will be a start of helping believers in this Christian context get exposed to what they’ve been missing in the biblical text and experience the thrill of discovering biblical theology.
我只想默默的拜读您的博客!
Hi Michael. It was about two yrs ago that I got frustrated by hearing “that passage doesn’t mean what it says”. So I did a brain dump of my beliefs and started reading the Bible all over again as if I was brand new. I did not ask others what to think, in fact I did not allow myself to hear what others had to say until about May of last yr (2016). But when I started, Genesis 6 hit me hard. The Giants topic led me to Pagan gods etc. It was as if I was discovering the Bible for the very first time! I was shocked at SO many amazing, new things I was discovering left and right!
Finally I decided to look and see if there was anyone else out there who was saying things the same way I was thinking and the way I was “wanting” to say, but couldn’t. Then I discovered you on YouTube talking about The Unseen Realm. Well, it was weird that your book had just been released for only 4 months at that time, and I had finally found someone who was teaching exactly what I was learning and saying it the way I was thinking it! Basically, the Bible means what it says, who’s a thunk it!? I could go on and on, but I’ll try not to hehe.
I discovered the Books of Enoch and Jasher pretty quick. I began testing these books thinking I would find them all wrong, but that has not turned out so simple. I think it was nearly a year of active searching before I finally found your own thoughts on the Book of Enoch, it seemed you suddenly opened up (on YouTube anyway) on it.
Thank you so much! Now if I can only get the courage to talk to all my church friends about Genesis 6, Giants, Deuteronomy 32, “other gods” etc…but I’m afraid they will think I’ve been influenced by the world and just tolerate me and never hear a word. They are pretty good people, but I am still quite nervous just the same.
-Gary
hi Gary ,Praise be to God — truth has come your way … like you I too have read for myself and how incredible the bible is and I never tire of it ….. there was a post in the community paper for a bible study and for the first time ever I joined one for 2 1/2 years but sadly the teacher who is in her 70’s only sees with her mind and always she uses commentaries that usually do not even come close to the real facts and she is stuck on life lessons …. so I trudged ahead and when I could I used the bible itself to prove the context of what it was actually saying and always I got resistance from her BUT 2 other ladies would show interest and the conversation would go from there , finally one of the ladies asked if I would do the study questions with her on a one to one and then I asked another lady if she was interested and now there are the 3 of us looking into the bible as it is …. I can not go as deep as this blog and I would not even dare to overwhelm these gals but it is a start and it is fascinating to see their eyes light up and the smile on the face when they get it , and then always the comment … now it makes sense ! So try the same thing , let God give you discernment for those around you that ask the right questions or voice their confusion and offer them a one on one . May God Bless
The truth needs to be disseminated. Many of us did not realize what we were missing until we found your work. With all of the people that Jim Bakker reaches I hope he is able to latch on to this and incorporate that in his life and also in his ministry. Thank you Dr. Heiser for stepping up to the plate and doing what you do.
Yup. That woulda been me.
Apparently what you -do- is genuine and everything else is ragtime.
Never tire of seeking what’s right.
Thanks/Best.
It was definitely a worthwhile interview to open minds to the extrapolations you deal with so well in you books and research.
To my mind, two of the most important biblical issues to be seen and delineated clearly are:
1) THE TRI-UNITY of GOD. which includes Jesus/Yeshuah as The God-Man and the Second Adam who did NOT fail or faulter.
and
2) The full meaning of Genesis 3:15 in relation to The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares, and the Parable of the Sower.
“The Conflict of the Ages” is about Spirit/spirit, Will/will, … and the DNA {originally perfect, and now defiled and desperately needing final redemption: ie/ “the redemption of our bodies.” [in perfected union with Spirit and soul.]